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  #106  
Old 12-29-2009, 03:05 PM
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Fanie Fanie is offline
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Hi Gonzo,

I've never been in the gulf of mexico but I've been in where the waves were going in all directions. Boy is that fun.
Thinking back the only thing I can think of is to have a big enough boat and a boat that would not make water.
A small spash can add a ton or two at a time and there usually is very little fish in there

One of the reasons why I think the bilge pumps we buy are rubbish. Their capacity is way too low and the motors are cheap scrap that doesn't last at all.
One needs a low pressure high capacity pump, not a high pressure low volume one.
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  #107  
Old 12-29-2009, 03:06 PM
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BeauVrolyk BeauVrolyk is offline
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Some film of sailing in heavy weather

All,

I collected some film of folks sailing in heavy weather. The first is a Dashew (sp?) going along quite comfortably at 20+ knots and turning in 330+ mile days. This shows that if you build a relatively light long boat you can go cruising with all the goodies and still go fast and safe. Note how little movement there is in a boat with a 10' sea running and strong winds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4zg5...eature=related

Second, I just wanted to toss in a great example of a lightweight boat, albeit a big one of 80', sailing in a full gale. They are still racing, with everyone on the rail. The waves were about 25' high that day and the wind was 40k gusting to 55k. Note how well sailed the boat is. Also, when you're watching the video keep in mind that she's got 12' of freeboard at the bow (which is still piercing the waves) and 10' of freeboard amidships. Interestingly, on a tight reach like this, the crew stays pretty far out of the water as the boat is heeled so much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvkWj...eature=related

Third, I'd like you all to watch this boat sailing along at speeds of 25 to 30 knots. You'll note that the 15' waves are being left behind. The boat is sailing smoothly up and over the wave in front, as the closing speed between the boat and the wave in front of it is only about 5 knots. There is no "crashing" into the bottom of the trough. At about 2min and 10seconds into the film the driver even takes his hands off the wheel and the boat does just fine. Moreover, the boats sail along without a lot of drama considering there is about 35k of wind and BIG seas. Now, imagine going the other way! You can see how "easy" this is by watching how gently the flag is flying from the backstay. When the boat is really moving, the flag is hardly flapping at all. The wind over the deck is about 10 knots, no water on the boat, no one in a panic, not even any real sheet trimming going on. If one were cruising you'd just pull two feet of spin sheet in and there would be nothing to do but steer. I'm not saying this if for everyone, but once again, imagine how painful this would be going the other direction or even sitting still hove to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnqUY...eature=related

Finally, in case you have trouble imagining what it's like to go up wind, or at least on a tight reach, in these conditions. The conditions and locations are almost identical, the effect it has on the boat and crew is dramatically different. Here's a video from the BT Global Challenge. For some reason they insist on going around the world the wrong way - up wind the entire way. Enjoy, and sail down wind whenever you get the chance, I think the films speak for themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXuzy...eature=related

I adore the old saying:

"Gentlemen never sail to weather."

Beau
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  #108  
Old 12-29-2009, 03:38 PM
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Re. multis getting caught by big winds:
I would think that a multihull designed for serious offshore use would have to consider wind/bridgedeck interaction right from the concept stage. A solid bridgedeck extending all the way to the ends of the boat is going to catch the wind. (Consider tunnel-hull powerboats: this is taken to the extreme, with the bridgedeck being given an aircraft-wing shape and supporting much of the boat's weight in this manner.) For a boat that's going to see storms- and anything that goes offshore is eventually going to see a storm, right? - the design should be such that the boat can't easily be picked up and tossed around by the wind. The large, lightly netted forward sections of Chris White's big Atlantic cats seem a logical solution.


Re. Beau's first video above (the Dashew boat):
Long, light and well balanced- Dashew yachts are reported to be some of the more comfortable and more easily handled passagemakers, as well as being rather on the fast side. The many advantages of this design philosophy are obvious. The downside, of course, is that it only seems to work for relatively large (thus expensive) boats. A Sundeer 60 is only 36,500 lb (D/L of 80) and has the interior space of many yachts ten feet shorter, with 15-year-old examples costing well into the $500-600k US range; apply similar proportions to something around 40 feet and you'd have a narrow, cramped and pricey boat that simply wouldn't have enough space for extended cruising.

From what I've read in the Dashews' articles, they seem to prefer that a full complement of drogues should be carried: a large parachute anchor to hold station in case of an engine or rig failure, a Jordan series drogue and/or GaleRider to slow the boat from astern if things get rough, and several other devices for different conditions. After all, the studies that led to the development of the JSD did indicate that drogues can be much more effective than changes to the boat itself when conditions are near the boat's limit.


Re. Beau's third video above (the racing mono running in 15-footers):
All well and good, but I would hate to see what would happen if the boat broached in these conditions.... it's one thing to run like this with a full racing crew, but surely not all boats (or crews) can do this in a safe, stable manner?
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  #109  
Old 12-29-2009, 03:47 PM
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or, "Gentlemen puke if it gets a little rougher..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7Fd...eature=related
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  #110  
Old 12-29-2009, 03:52 PM
mark775
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"Re. Beau's third video above (the racing mono running in 15-footers):
All well and good, but I would hate to see what would happen if the boat broached in these conditions.... it's one thing to run like this with a full racing crew, but surely not all boats (or crews) can do this in a safe, stable manner?"
- I think likewise.
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  #111  
Old 12-29-2009, 03:53 PM
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Fanie Fanie is offline
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Good link ther Mark, one can clearly see the water movement as it was descibed by BV there.
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  #112  
Old 12-29-2009, 04:07 PM
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BeauVrolyk BeauVrolyk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark775 View Post
"Re. Beau's third video above (the racing mono running in 15-footers):
All well and good, but I would hate to see what would happen if the boat broached in these conditions.... it's one thing to run like this with a full racing crew, but surely not all boats (or crews) can do this in a safe, stable manner?"
- I think likewise.
Guys,

I know that blasting along down wind in big waves and a big sea looks terrifying, and I agree that if one does crash it's ugly.

I would simply point out that people had exactly the same reaction to automobiles when they first came out and the results are similar. If you do screw up and crash - it's really ugly. If you've never gone 70 miles per hour down a freeway - it's terrifying. I had the astounding opportunity to take a guy from the back bush of Australia in a car for the first ride of his life. At 45 he climbed under the dash board. Keep in mind, fear and risk are directly linked to experience. Until you've actually sailed a really well designed boat, and I'm happy to provide a list, in these conditions and in this way, it is completely reasonable to be fearful of the conditions and the results of an error. Just remember than in the New York time circa 1890 there was a serious article saying that people would not be able to breath when traveling at 30 miles per hour in a car.

Best,

Beau
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  #113  
Old 12-29-2009, 04:23 PM
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We have a saying in northern Germany when the Winter storms and storm floods are hammering against the dikes:

Imagine,


now at sea..............


and then no boat......


and a suitcase in each hand.

Avoid weather........
Richard
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  #114  
Old 12-29-2009, 04:23 PM
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Fanie Fanie is offline
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How about this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAnHEWPFzEg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHK18Plnw4I
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  #115  
Old 12-29-2009, 07:15 PM
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Beau, those (3 first) video's were not more than, what we call here " mild kuling", and I've been out with open outboard boat in a lot worse weather than that.. Thou got to say I wouldn't even think about videoing in a severe storm bcs mostly you can't see a ****.
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  #116  
Old 12-29-2009, 08:07 PM
apex1
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You like blue water cruising when you agree that here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JShGZ...eature=related


the fun starts!

You need new tableware yes, so, not every day of course.
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  #117  
Old 12-30-2009, 04:00 AM
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Fanie Fanie is offline
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The waves always looks smaller on video.
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  #118  
Old 12-30-2009, 05:21 AM
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capt vimes capt vimes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark775 View Post
or, "Gentlemen puke if it gets a little rougher..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf7Fd...eature=related
that happens with slow - in this case longkeeled boats - not making, or being able to make, efficient speed through the water...
they get tossed around by the waves like a cork...
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  #119  
Old 12-30-2009, 05:31 AM
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capt vimes capt vimes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanie View Post
funny fanie... exactly the same video i posted earlier on this thread as an example for NOT being in a cat when the shite hits the ven...

mono: turned over but still afloat upright after turning through 360°...
cat: turned over.... end-of-line
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  #120  
Old 12-30-2009, 05:36 AM
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capt vimes capt vimes is offline
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thank's for the videos beau...

in your second one could see quite good how to run almost parallel to the waves...
building up speed when running into the through - going a little bit into the wind and over the crest - off the wind again and catching up speed running down into the trough again...

i like that way of sailing in big seaways... very smooth ride, no chopping around and fast!
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