Fastest classic sail yacht?

[Tevens]

what is the fastest ever classic sailing boat?

what made it so good apart from the crew?

[daiquiri]

Never say ever.

[Northwester]

The J-Class yachts that raced in the Americas Cup series during the late 1920s and the 1930's might qualify.

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by Northwester

The J-Class yachts that raced in the Americas Cup series during the late 1920s and the 1930's might qualify.

So... An 80 ft monohull displacement yacht would be fastest ever?

[PAR]

The J's were pigs by the end of their development, so restricted by the AC rule that they became ridiculously expensive and contrived. The same was true of the 12's, which by the end of their development, dragged such a huge hole amidship, that you could drop a tractor trailer in it.

The fastest would be the largest and youngest of the yachts considered "classic". This would have the most modern of innovations incorporated into the design and being the largest, a LWL advantage too boot.

[Steam Flyer]

Originally Posted by PAR

The J's were pigs by the end of their development, so restricted by the AC rule that they became ridiculously expensive and contrived. The same was true of the 12's, which by the end of their development, dragged such a huge hole amidship, that you could drop a tractor trailer in it.

The fastest would be the largest and youngest of the yachts considered "classic". This would have the most modern of innovations incorporated into the design and being the largest, a LWL advantage too boot.

Seems like you contradicted yoourself here... the later J-class were "contrived" but were not Endeavor 2 and Ranger much faster than their older sisters? In the 12-Meter class racing, don't they seperate the boats by era (or design generation) because the newer boats are faster?

Kind of like your second statement, where the fastest classic yacht would be the most recent one considered "classic"?

?

BTW to get on with the original posters question... it would probably be RELIANCE (Herreshoff, 1903) since she was about the biggest & flew by far the most sail area. The biggest & fastest of those pre-rule racing yachts did 16+ on honkin' spinnaker runs.

FB- Doug

[PAR]

You have to compare apples to apples. It's not reasonable to compare a big J against a 12. Being faster then previous racers of the same rule, doesn't mean they were anything but more efficient at circumventing the rules better then their predecessors. The same is true of all boats designed about a rule.

In reality a don't think any AC boat would come close to some of the early mega yacht offerings, let alone the latest that could still be deemed "classic". Don't get me wrong, I have Reliance and Ranger's lines plans on my wall, but there are larger yachts that were designed without rule restrictions, which are faster. Hell, I can go 16+ in my little dayboat, which is an indication of how much further design has advanced since 1903. With 70' yachts easily blasting through 30 knots, just imagine what a modern J could do.

[Tcubed]

Define "Classic".

I know some people with 1968 grp production boat with some long overhangs and they consider that classic.

Also "fastest"- are we talking about peak speed, best times across oceans, most consistently fast, fast in bad weather, in light winds, round the buoys or more of a quality over quantity measure such as fastest for its size, fastest given what the other requirements for that boat were........?

[DGreenwood]

Originally Posted by Tcubed

Define "Classic".

I know some people with 1968 grp production boat with some long overhangs and they consider that classic.

Also "fastest"- are we talking about peak speed, best times across oceans, most consistently fast, fast in bad weather, in light winds, round the buoys or more of a quality over quantity measure such as fastest for its size, fastest given what the other requirements for that boat were........?

All good questions.

Do we include Clippers. Because over longer distances they were pretty fast.

The break point date for what you call a "classic" and what you would qualify as "speed" would very much affect the answer to that question.Would you qualify Mike Birch's multis or any of the Pen Duicks as classics? Where is the line?

[wetass]

FD?
Mehalla II (Stenbäck), Dilemma (Herreshoff)?
The Experiment (Sir Petty), Amaryllis (Herreshoff)?
And the rest of a lot of boats that were banned for being fast?
It´s quite hard to be unanimous about what is the fastest modern boat...

[daiquiri]

Hey guys, when I said "never say ever" I meant exactly what TCubed, Dgreenwood and Wetass said.

The initial question is so meaningless that it almost look like a bad joke.
- What is classic?
- What maximum length of the boat are we talking about?
- What weather conditions and sea state are we talking about?
- Monohull or multihull?

But the biggest nonsense is the use of the word "ever". Ever means from the beginning of time till ethernity. So where exactly do classic yachts settle in that time period?

It is a question that cannot have a meaningfull and univocal answer, so even what I'm typing right now is just a waste of time.

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by PAR

You have to compare apples to apples. It's not reasonable to compare a big J against a 12. Being faster then previous racers of the same rule, doesn't mean they were anything but more efficient at circumventing the rules better then their predecessors. The same is true of all boats designed about a rule.

On the other hand, for a start there's basically no racing boat designed without some rule. Secondly, those with the most open rules are sometimes the most expensive, fragile, complex and hardest to handle.

In reality a don't think any AC boat would come close to some of the early mega yacht offerings, let alone the latest that could still be deemed "classic". Don't get me wrong, I have Reliance and Ranger's lines plans on my wall, but there are larger yachts that were designed without rule restrictions, which are faster. Hell, I can go 16+ in my little dayboat, which is an indication of how much further design has advanced since 1903. With 70' yachts easily blasting through 30 knots, just imagine what a modern J could do.

The idea that all rating boats are only winners due to rule manipulation may be a big call. Take something as maligned as the IOR in its most popular days. A "faster" one tonner like the first Farrs was cheaper, roomier, easier to sail and carried less rig than the earlier Peterson etc boats. What's wrong with that?

[CT 249]

The later Js weren't pigs. Compared to the Length X Sail Area rule boats (Reliance etc) there's some evidence that they were damn quick.

I've got a copy of the story of Britannia, which went through the period from L x SA boats through to the J Class. Looking at the rating changes, modifications and performances through the years seems to indicate that the later Js were faster around a course than the Linear boats, which had much more sail and more length. For example, the early Js beat Britannia, which had 8700 ft of sail compared to their 7600, and was several feet longer. The later Js utterly dominated Britannia.

[waikikin]

Define "Classic".

Thats the key to the answer especially the second part of the Q., weather its styling / age / coolness for the time / whoever/whatever, I'm sure the likes of Lock Crowther, Jim Brown etc, etc vesssels will qualify or be contenders in enlightened times, howabout some skiffs, maybe something like Bob Millers Taipan, I see her every working day & she'll fit my definitions. Regards from Jeff.

[Steve W]

Ragtime would surely qualify as a classic(1966), topped 26knots in this years Hobart race and won her division a very speedy classic indeed, she has of course been continually upgraded but that should not disqualify her,its what you do with worthwhile raceboats.
Steve.