Farr = Evil?

[mholguin]

Not a designer, but a sailing enthusiast.

I grew up to believe that Farr was one of the top designers in the game, and still find it hard to read all the attacks (either to him or his bureau).

May I ask why?

I have no intention to start a flmaing, just curious...

[Wynand N]

best to ask the man himself.....

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by mholguin

Not a designer, but a sailing enthusiast.

I grew up to believe that Farr was one of the top designers in the game, and still find it hard to read all the attacks (either to him or his bureau).

May I ask why?

I have no intention to start a flmaing, just curious...

I think much has to do with jealousy. BFA has been at the undisputed top of the game for 20+ years.

Things have been said on this board about Farr building boats poorly (not true, they don't build), Farr specifying machining process of titanium ram ends (not true), Farr poorly designing CF structures (even if we don't know the root cause of the failure and don't know if it was built to a BFA spec at all).

All this stems from people not knowing how modern high performance yachts are designed and built. In many instances the designer is not contracted for the construction/materials details, that is often done by outside suppliers like SP Systems. The team's builder also makes certain decisions about the construction, often in search of lightening the structure. Look at some of the comments by people like Jason Carrington in the lead up to the VOR.

In fact, there are times when a designer is contracted to produce a linesplan with offsets, sailplan, keel and rudder drawings with offsets, and nothing else. The rest is done by other contractors and the builder. When something goes wrong the press only knows the name of the designer, not the name of the fellow who decided to minimize the secondary bonding to save a couple of kilos to go into the bulb.

Now if someone wants to mention that Farr might have missed the boat by not going for a bigger form stability design in this VOR they might have a point. On the other hand, we don't know if he had such a design and the teams chose the middle of the road choice. We do know that in previous W60/VOR60 Races BFA had options for more powerful boats, and some teams chose them (EF) and some did not (Silk Cut).

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I think much has to do with jealousy. BFA has been at the undisputed top of the game for 20+ years.

Undisputed? LMAO

1983 AUSTRALIA II vs. LIBERTY
1987 STARS & STRIPES vs. KOOKABURRA III
1988 STARS & STRIPES vs. NEW ZEALAND
1992 AMERICA3 vs. IL MORO DI VENEZIA
1995 BLACK MAGIC vs. YOUNG AMERICA
2000 BLACK MAGIC vs. LUNA ROSA
2003 ALINGHI vs. BLACK MAGIC

Here are 7 boats in the last 20+ years than won the America's Cup, how many are BFA designs?

What game are you talking about?

Late edit:

Farr Designs:

1987 KIWI MAGIC
1988 NEW ZEALAND
1992 NEW ZEALAND CHALLENGE
1995 TAG HEUER
1999/2000 YOUNG AMERICA
2002/2003 ORACLE BMW RACING

[K4s]

Tall Poppy syndrome.When someone is at the top or near of their chosen game,cut em down quick,no other reason than they are good at what they do.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by K4s

Tall Poppy syndrome.When someone is at the top or near of their chosen game,cut em down quick,no other reason than they are good at what they do.

I guess BFA didn't choose AC designs ...

No one can argue that Farr has done some very nice boats. In some classes, and under some rules, Farr boats are the cream of the crop. That doesn't mean every boat they design is the best. In 20 years they have come up with 6 losers and NO winners in AC design.

Every one of the Farr designs has failed to finish at least one leg of the VOR. In the past (when you had to sail the whole course) that would mean that 100% of the Farr boats would be DNF before the start of the 4th leg.

At or near the top? Undisputed top of the game? Not hardly.

[mholguin]

So, if being such a looser, how come he's is involved in so many top events? Why is he choosen?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, there is the design, the construction, the weather, the sails, the fittings, a million different pieces of hardware, the skipper, the tactics, the crews... so, design is not the only factor here, is it? Give me AMRO ONE, and maybe I would be finishing leg 1 just about now.

From my biased, uninformed, and barely educated point of view, I think Farr is one of the top design offices. Is it the best? Don't think so. Is it the worst? not quite. But is it ranked amongst the best in the business? I guess it is. I guess I think I understand now. We are all humans after all.

With the news of movistars severe leak due to failure of the bomb bay doors(AGAIN!) there is no doubt that the design concept ,engineering , building or all three is seriously flawed on the Farr boats.

[Windvang]

Originally Posted by mholguin

So, if being such a looser, how come he's is involved in so many top events? Why is he choosen?

From my biased, uninformed, and barely educated point of view, I think Farr is one of the top design offices. Is it the best? Don't think so. Is it the worst? not quite. But is it ranked amongst the best in the business? I guess it is. I guess I think I understand now. We are all humans after all.

So if Farr is not the best design office (racing wise) which are the other contenders? Is there any office with so many wins, in so many classes on it's name?

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Windvang

So if Farr is not the best design office (racing wise) which are the other contenders? Is there any office with so many wins, in so many classes on it's name?

Sparkman & Stephens ?

The Farr office is very good, they have had success under IOR, IMS and IRC rules. The Farr office Owned the Whitbread 60/ VO60 class. They have struggled with America's Cup designs (thought by many to be the ultimate design challenge) and they have failed with their VO70 designs.

Farr enjoys a great reputation, when committing $$$ to a new boat for ocean racing it would be foolish not to consider them. For years it was said "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM computers", it seems that the same thinking exists in ocean racing "Nobody ever got fired for choosing Farr to design the boat". After the spectacular failures in the VO70 associated with Farr, I think that people will look at other design offices.

[mholguin]

Originally Posted by Windvang

So if Farr is not the best design office (racing wise) which are the other contenders? Is there any office with so many wins, in so many classes on it's name?

Windvang please quote my complete sentence, it is misleading the way you did. The complete sentence is:

From my biased, uninformed, and barely educated point of view, I think Farr is one of the top design offices. Is it the best? Don't think so. Is it the worst? not quite. But is it ranked amongst the best in the business? I guess it is. I guess I think I understand now. We are all humans after all.

Thanks.

[Windvang]

Originally Posted by mholguin

Windvang please quote my complete sentence, it is misleading the way you did. The complete sentence is:

Thanks.

Not intentional, edited

[Earl Boebert]

Well, I don't know about Farr vs. other contemporary designers, but certainly historically Sparkman and Stephens and (further back) Herreshoffs have records to inspire awe.

As an aside, as someone who spent nigh on to 40 years participating in, leading, and picking through the wreckage of engineering projects dealing with potentially lethal technology, I must admit to being totally unimpressed with the "nobody's in charge" structure of the VOR efforts. Color me mossback green, but all this "I just do my part and I don't know about the rest" attitude looks like a first class way to engineer a fatal accident when pushing bleeding edge technology into a high-risk environment.

Cheers,

Earl

[mholguin]

Originally Posted by Windvang

Not intentional, edited

No problem, just want to see an objective discussion to go on...

Thanks Man!!!

[K4s]

Originally Posted by RHough

I guess BFA didn't choose AC designs ...

No one can argue that Farr has done some very nice boats. In some classes, and under some rules, Farr boats are the cream of the crop. That doesn't mean every boat they design is the best. In 20 years they have come up with 6 losers and NO winners in AC design.

Every one of the Farr designs has failed to finish at least one leg of the VOR. In the past (when you had to sail the whole course) that would mean that 100% of the Farr boats would be DNF before the start of the 4th leg.

At or near the top? Undisputed top of the game? Not hardly.

Jeez dude look around,sailing doesnt just stop at the AC.
Its pretty simple really,If Farr was no good he wouold be in the same boat as the american auto industry,hes not sooooooooooooooooo..................