everglades challenge sailboat

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by rapscallion, Mar 6, 2012.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    -----
    Thanks. Do you have a link to the forums? I want to try to spot the boats when they come thru here-especially the tri!
     
  2. spidennis
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    Location: south padre island, texas

    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    the shared spot tracker pages for each ufc competitor is listed in the top sticky post
    http://watertribe.org/forums/topic/ultimate-florida-tracking

    when the tracker page went down I got these guys to list the ufc teams
    http://trackleaders.com/general
    I like their method way better than the wt page.
    On the bottom of each competitor's page is a list of the last ten data points showing distance and avg speed. That's a really nice feature!

    Mosquito Magnet - Last 10 points

    #637 on Mon Mar 12 11:03:10 2012 (1 hours, 56 minutes ago). 0.36 mi traveled at 2.1 mph
    #636 on Mon Mar 12 10:53:10 2012 (2 hours, 6 minutes ago). 0.51 mi traveled at 3.1 mph
    #635 on Mon Mar 12 10:43:11 2012 (2 hours, 16 minutes ago). 0.61 mi traveled at 3.6 mph
    #634 on Mon Mar 12 10:32:57 2012 (2 hours, 27 minutes ago). 0.62 mi traveled at 3.7 mph
    #633 on Mon Mar 12 10:23:00 2012 (2 hours, 37 minutes ago). 0.54 mi traveled at 3.3 mph
    #632 on Mon Mar 12 10:13:00 2012 (2 hours, 47 minutes ago). 0.54 mi traveled at 3.2 mph
    #631 on Mon Mar 12 10:03:00 2012 (2 hours, 57 minutes ago). 2.23 mi traveled at 2.7 mph
    #630 on Mon Mar 12 09:13:01 2012 (3 hours, 47 minutes ago). 0.51 mi traveled at 3.1 mph
    #629 on Mon Mar 12 09:03:01 2012 (3 hours, 57 minutes ago). 0.48 mi traveled at 2.9 mph
    #628 on Mon Mar 12 08:53:02 2012 (4 hours, 7 minutes ago). 0.40 mi traveled at 2.4 mph
    #627 on Mon Mar 12 08:43:03 2012 (4 hours, 16 minutes ago).
     
  3. spidennis
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    Location: south padre island, texas

    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

  4. Doug Lord
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Thanks, Dennis! Conditions off shore here are rough......May calm down in two-three days.
     
  5. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    Rough conditions off shore huh?
    so what do you think about any ufc competitors being out there?
    could Sizzors do it? (I'd not think so)
    could the Mosquito of SB/sos do it?
    What would it take to be off shore right now?
    what kind of boat? F18 maybe?
    for a canoe or kayak the ICW is the way to go
    but the Mosquito is having a really tough time.

    I'm thinking that if I was entered this year with "Bad Kitty"
    where would I be? stuck in the concrete ditch with the others?
    I'd be under sail and using my peddle prop drive,
    motorsailing the best I could.
     
  6. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ------------------
    A Worrell capable multi might be ok. 20' monos with keels probably ok.
    Mosquito the tri-maybe a bit much but maybe ok. I have little experience with kayaks-I built one that was real unstable and fooled around with one in the surf as a kid(not a good experience ,all in all)- so I don't know about them.
     
  7. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I would strongly advise a sailing boat without an engine to go the outside route north from Lake Worth, especially if they found the Miami area daunting and difficult.

    Back in for the Indian River (a pretty area if nothing else). Out again at Ponce de Leon as the area from 800 mile marker south is a narrow channel for miles that you will have to paddle

    Also the tides run real fast near the river entrances, too much to paddle against I would think

    North of St Augustine is OK inside if you are with the tide and it is not a northerly

    Tides run fast north of St Johns on the inside, so again I'd go outside for that bit

    Personally on a sailing boat I'd try to do the whole east coast outside and stay close to shore (but mind the breakwaters!) unless wind is over 25 knots from ahead

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  8. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    I sure do miss Randy in this race, I was hoping to learn from one of the best! But as it is I am learning, mostly that this was a tough conditions race! I'd feel pretty safe and confident with my sea kayak and a 1 sq. meter sail such as the FEKS http://www.flatearthkayaksails.com/ .

    If I could have had the choice between boats at the start of this race between "Bad Kitty" and my Current Designs "Extreme" sea kayak I would have chosen the yak! Yeah, I'm a good enough paddler to do the UFC and it's still a really big temptation to do so, it's nice to have the choice though.

    As it is though I want to keep my paddling for my other adventures, got several trips in the works, a couple close to home. A training run around south padre island, maybe the Texas 200 but I'd rather do an outside run up the coast, I did the inside a couple of years ago. That trip pretty much forever set me into the long distance endurance mode.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    A well set up proa loses a little against a tack and a lot against a gybe, but runs dead square very quickly. But it is much more drama proof and less effort as you don't have to move and the rig does most of the sheeting work. see http://harryproa.com/ShuntingVideo/ShuntingLg_st.wmv which actually gets easier as the wind increases.

    Also, in shallow water, if you run aground, you shunt and get off. Much easier than poling off and tacking. This lets you use much more channel width. In really tough (narrow with lots of shallow bits and swirly head winds) conditions, I would back the proa to get there first. As they get less tough, the cat would get quicker, but the longer it lasts, the more tired the cat guy is going to get, relatively speaking.

    No doubt a properly designed prop and gearbox is more efficient, but they really struggle in shallow water ;-). The long, light proa will be sailed in anything above a flat calm or going upwind in less than 12" of water. The first, the prop will be better, the second, the paddlewheel. There are a bunch of efficiency improvements you could make to the paddlewheel as well.

    Can't portage the boat? What a dopey rule. Have to risk your life with the bike. The 30' proa would still be lighter and much faster than an 18' cat. Also easier to build.

    Even if I lived there, I am too old, fat and smart to do a race that requires 40 miles of portage. The EC is different. Build a proa for that and I would gladly crew for you.

    rob
     
  10. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I agree with Rob, a double ended boat (like a proa) is probably the easiest to get of a sandbar if you run aground.

    I remember it being a good "party trick" in my proa sailing days

    I watched your cycling video. If you were using a car what you did would be illegal.

    So a question: Are the trailing laws the same if you use a bike instead of a car? I'm thinking restricted length overhangs, red flags, lights everywhere etc

    As the portage is "only" 40 miles does it make sense to do the trip in two goes? After all it would only take you 3 hours to cycle back for the second load

    Again like Rob I would have thought there were more creative ideas in using the boat as a trailer. Years ago I put trailer wheels in the hulls of my Wizard catamaran, on the theory that aeroplanes don't leave their undercarriages behind when they take off. But later I took them off, too much of a gimmick, although it worked

    I am also too old and fat to portage a boat

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  11. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    Richard,
    What I meant to say about the portage is that the hulls can't be the bike, it can certainly be pulled by a bike. Add wheels to the hulls or put the boat on a cart, then pull it. Usually a rule has been made because of a past problem. There was a guy on inline skates one year, I never found out why it was a problem.

    If there's one thing I've learned about the portaging from my canoe racing up in the Adirondacks of upstate NY is that a lot of time can be made on the portage. I can save a whole day maybe more by biking in one go.

    As for the trailering laws from cars to bicycles, I guess they don't apply? An it hasn't been a problem, yet. Rob's 30 footer might raise a few eyebows though! and not just from curious passer byers.

    I'd still have all the reflective markers just to be safe and I'd run my red nav lite on the back.

    I think you guys are selling yourselves short, there's the boat switch rule that would make things easier on you, then there's the Daniel Boone option and finally the Total Weenie option, all there to help this race out for more entries or low water in the rivers.
     
  12. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    I think there is a braking problem with inline skates which is overcome with the bike. That could result in some serious issues in traffic, especially with the weight of the hull pressing you forward.
     
  13. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    I do think you found the trouble with that plan!

    But even with the bike's breaks i don't think that it's quite enough. For a rolling stop with distance it might be fine but I think I want a bit more so in the back of my mind I got a plan where I might use trailer brakes but further testing will tell.

    There's also the issue of the portage around "Big Shoals" on the Suwannee , but not a problem if you're a "Crazy Russian"!

     
  14. spidennis
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    Location: south padre island, texas

    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    Rob,
    interesting video. It would be nice to see it with a bit more wind though but the way it is shows how it's done . I'd really like to see it work on the ICW with boat traffic and a towboat/barge in the mix.

    Schooner rigged huh? yeah, that caught my eye and curiosity so I went digging farther and back into your site, again. From what I can tell it was a handful for a solo sailor? And then a single mast was tried and worked much better?

    I'm getting a feel for this whole proa concept after watching some videos and looking at different boats. I can see how this could be faster than Sizzors and really give him a run for the money, I just don't want to end up with the same fate as Randy did this year with a fragile boat.

    On the yahoo forum I see Rick W on there, a knowledgeable man with the peddle prop drive. I've been emailing him about Bad Kitty and he mentioned the proa. Other designers have been mentioning the proa. But I haven't seen and heard of a boat that's not "experimental" in some way, and has proven itself in some kind of serious trip or race.

    The Elementarry looks like a cool boat, and maybe the right size? 7.5 M or 24.5 ' . It is mentioned that it's a folding boat? but I didn't see that shown anywhere. I like that the boom is down by the deck, keeps the forces low. The proa has a lot going for it, but is it enough, for the ufc that is. speaking of which, it's mid day and time to go check in on the progress!
     

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  15. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    Works just the same in breeze. Incidentally, the battens were too stiff to flop over in the light breeze in the video, so only one sail is working on each shunt, which gives an indication of light air speed potential.

    An advantage of unstayed masts is you can completely stop on any course, in any wind speed. If it is a proa, you also have control as soon as you start sailing, regardless of where the wind is from, even dead ahead. You do not need speed or space to "tack", and can "gybe" without increasing speed. All very handy in crowded spaces.

    It was a handful due to the sail area in a windy area (Perth). Like sailing a Tornado single handed. With only one rig, it was much easier, but a little slower. Back then I was experimenting with rudders, so the smaller rig made sense. Now that the rudders are sorted, I am playing with rigs again. Waiting for the sail to be finished so I can test stage 1 of a telescoping mast. 24' high in heavy breeze, 43' in the light. Be cool if it works.

    The schooner is great for shallow water sailing as you can steer the boat with the sails. Also a rocket on a reach. Not so hot in light air.

    Build it right and allow yourself time to learn to sail it and test it and you will have no problems. Ideally, sail the course before the race. Advantage of a proa with unstayed mast(s) is all the loads are in the centre portion of the lee hull. The rest can be very light and uncomplicated, including the beam reduction and removable ends. There are also far fewer bits to break. Faster than Sizzors is possible. Faster than Randy is a different kettle of fish!

    Rick is very knowledgable. Has helped with the design of some new hulls which are extremely easy to build and sails on a 60' proa (experimental in a lot of ways, none of them racing).

    A 40' harry crossed the Tasman Sea (1200 miles) a year or so ago. Weathered a 45 knot storm. Broke a bulkhead which was incorrectly installed, but otherwise no problems.

    None have raced because they have all been cruisers, except my elementarry, which is for experiments. When I have raced it, it has performed well. I would happily refund the plans cost to anyone who built one and raced it.

    The trick is to build it in plenty of time, so you can sail it and sort out your technique and the boat. These are not boats that you finish off on the beach the night before and expect to win with.

    Cool indeed. That is the boat I am putting the telescoping rig on. Would gladly lend it to you for the EC. The beams telescope internally, which is a pain because of the trampoline, but it could be made to fold pretty easily. Better is to telescope the beams externally. It would be fine for the EC, but I would make the lee hull as long as you could handle.

    I presume the "boat switch rule" requires two boats? (and hopefully a car ride for the 40 miles) What is the Daniel Boone option? The Total Weenie option sounds like the one most suited to us old, fat chaps.

    rob
     
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