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  #16  
Old 03-07-2012, 11:33 AM
CutOnce CutOnce is offline
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Originally Posted by sharpii2 View Post
All in all, I think this is a good wrinkle in the sport of sailing. This flavor of competition will do much to bring small sailboat design to where it should be. Gone are the ever deeper bulb keels. Not much help if you want to sail across a two foot deep oyster bed. Gone too is the insistence that the centerboard go in the center line of the boat (easier for it to get jammed up when beaching). Better to place it slightly off center, if you have any dead rise to your hull. Gone as well, is the elaborately stayed tall rig (you have to take it down to make it to some of the checkpoints.)
This is about a direct Statement of Requirements (SOR) for Jim Michalak's Laguna design(s).

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More and more, it looks like the multi's are coming to dominate the sport, with their light weight, shallow draft and high speed.
Can't argue with the results.

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The one thing that seems a bit depressing is the growing size of the boats. It seems like you need something 20 ft plus to stay competitive. That's why the one person boats are more interesting to me.

For a one person mono, I'd pick a sharpie of about 15 ft in length, but narrow enough to row decently.

It would have a water tight compartment on each end, with hatches for stowing gear in them.

The center section would be at least 6ft long and have a raised sole, so the skipper could lay down in it comfortably. It, too, would have hatches for stowage of heavier items, such as bottled water and ground tackle.

It would have a tabernacle main mast that could be easily raised and lowered.

It would be ketch, cat ketch or even cat schooner rigged, for better directional stability. And the sails would have gaffs, yards, or lots of battens.

It would have lee boards or an off set centerboard, so the skipper can sit and lay next to it, rather than behind it.

It would have a kick up rudder blade, engineered so the rudder could be used with the blade up or down (I have been able to make windward progress with my Siren 17 with the board fully retracted and the rudder blade kicked up, but the rudder stock seemed not quite strong enough for this kind of treatment).

Lastly, its design purpose would be to always complete the event, not necessarily win it.

Clearly, there are plenty of hulls out there that meet my first requirements. I's how they're finished and rigged that will make all the difference.
Sounds a lot like a Goat Island Skiff from Michael Storer.

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I would certainly consider trying my Coal Car 12 scow design (if I ever get a chance to build it) with just a few modifications. It wouldn't ever win but would stand a good chance of finishing.
I agree with your point regarding this being a good development for the sport. Less expensive, home buildable boats with a broad, flexible usage scope would probably get used and enjoyed a lot more than narrow focus, hair on fire performance sleds that can't handle use outside their narrow focus.

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  #17  
Old 03-07-2012, 01:35 PM
sharpii2 sharpii2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gary Baigent View Post
The 5.5 metre Cox's Bay Skimmer would probably fit the Everglades Challenge okay. Since that earlier posting, the unstayed wing masts have been changed to stayed rigs with the bearings lifted to deck level (the fore main bent the carbon lower area, apparently not enough lamination so I cut the cantilever sections off). The stays (which I like because I've quit worrying about the rigs now), would make the time lowering the rigs a little longer - but maybe not at all because they pivot on the round bearings; whereas the unstayed setup required you to lift the whole assembly up and out; not that easy for the fore main with a tippy boat, even though the masts are light, but easier with the large water ballast tank filled. The boat is surprisingly good beating with the wing masts and large, low sail area, offwind it planes easily. But maybe, for singlehanding, a DSS foil might be necessary for more righting moment and to handle the quite large sail power?
Looks like too much boat for one person. Can one person right it, if it flips?

It's not like there's going to be a crash boat near by. From what I can see, this boat is primarily a go fast machine with little regard for beach cruising. It may be fast enough to do all the check points in a single day but at least one of the the multi's have been doing that for years (Lumpy and Bumpy).

Is that a dagger board I see? If so it has a good chance of cutting a new centerboard slot, should it hit an unmarked shoal at high speed.

It also looks like this boat may need to be modified a bit to carry clothes and gear. I suppose you can stuff them in through the inspection ports, but will you be able to find them when you need them.?

Imagine sailing that thing in boisterous winds for sixteen to twenty hours, all the while concentrating on keeping it upright. I suppose it can be done. More the pity.

Here comes the high tech, high carbon, high cost people to ruin yet another sport, turning it into a pro or semi pro event. Can the sponsors be too far off?
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  #18  
Old 03-07-2012, 01:42 PM
sharpii2 sharpii2 is offline
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Originally Posted by CutOnce View Post
This is about a direct Statement of Requirements (SOR) for Jim Michalak's Laguna design(s).



Can't argue with the results.



Sounds a lot like a Goat Island Skiff from Michael Storer.



I agree with your point regarding this being a good development for the sport. Less expensive, home buildable boats with a broad, flexible usage scope would probably get used and enjoyed a lot more than narrow focus, hair on fire performance sleds that can't handle use outside their narrow focus.

--
CutOnce
The Goat Island skiff is a good boat for this event, even though it's primarily set up for daysailing. I think it's the sharpie hull lines that make it so suitable. It can sail fast, is easily beachable, and can float in very shallow water.
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  #19  
Old 03-07-2012, 02:20 PM
peterchech peterchech is offline
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It looks like the outside passage high speed boats usually win (ie tornado and scissors) and in that set of circumstances I don't see why the i-550, modified gougeon-style, couldn't do very well.
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  #20  
Old 03-07-2012, 03:31 PM
sharpii2 sharpii2 is offline
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Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
It looks like the outside passage high speed boats usually win (ie tornado and scissors) and in that set of circumstances I don't see why the i-550, modified gougeon-style, couldn't do very well.
It could do very well indeed. With a good, driving Northerly, an alert, competent crew and some really good luck, it could win the race. At least amongst the mono's.

The scary thing is that it will be pushing the sport in the direction of big, un ballasted skiffs that need athletic crews and good luck to even complete the race. Soon, they could come to dominate, inviting in even more extreme types, shoving everyone else out. The event could become one long, dangerous day sail, where meeting at the check points becomes just a formality (one that should be maintained to keep the boats from becoming even more extreme).

The technology is here, the few people who can afford these boats, who are still young and agile enough to make them work, are here, and the media can't be too far behind.

It will just be less interesting and less colorful than a beach full of improvised day sailors, small multihulls, and sailing and paddling kayaks and canoes. It will go the route of the single handed ocean races, where the boats became so ridiculously extreme, they really aren't practical for anything else, and the crews are of such a high professional caliber, no one can relate to them.

Progress.

You gotta love it.
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  #21  
Old 03-07-2012, 03:59 PM
Gary Baigent Gary Baigent is online now
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Originally Posted by sharpii2 View Post
Looks like too much boat for one person. Can one person right it, if it flips?

It's not like there's going to be a crash boat near by. From what I can see, this boat is primarily a go fast machine with little regard for beach cruising. It may be fast enough to do all the check points in a single day but at least one of the the multi's have been doing that for years (Lumpy and Bumpy).

Is that a dagger board I see? If so it has a good chance of cutting a new centerboard slot, should it hit an unmarked shoal at high speed.

It also looks like this boat may need to be modified a bit to carry clothes and gear. I suppose you can stuff them in through the inspection ports, but will you be able to find them when you need them.?

Imagine sailing that thing in boisterous winds for sixteen to twenty hours, all the while concentrating on keeping it upright. I suppose it can be done. More the pity.

Here comes the high tech, high carbon, high cost people to ruin yet another sport, turning it into a pro or semi pro event. Can the sponsors be too far off?
hey Sharpii2 - and Upchurchmr,
The 5.5 x 2.25 metre Cox's Bay Skimmer was built in a corner of a friend's factory and then finished off in a back yard - and it is of low technology materials, not at all an expensive boat: skinned with tensioned 3.5mm plywood over a few bulkheads and stringers with only a little carbon in high load areas - like the daggerboard case top and supports, the deck and bearings surrounding the mast bases (since removed) and at the gunwhale area where you roll the boat over on for cleaning the bottom. The 6.5 metre wing masts (12 kgs each) are very light bendy ply over a simple alloy tube with numbers of ply internal frames and the only carbon used was in the cantilever areas (which failed on the foremast in fresh winds while carrying too much sail) - they also have been removed and replaced with simple ball and socket bearings.
You know, there is a lot of nonsense spoken about daggerboards tearing the cases apart upon grounding. This boat lives in a large shoal area with numbers of reefs, namely the long Meola reef and around Watchman Island, plus various other volcanic shallow areas too, plus 3-4 knot tides in channels; of course the idea is not to hit them but if you do, if you are alert, you'll hear the elliptical tip start scratching - and then you lift it. Of course ramming straight into a jagged volcanic rock should be avoided ... but then you should do some chart homework before sailing in such a place. Daggerboards are far more efficient than compromised centreboards.
There are two bunks set forward and each side under the forward enclosed deck area via a hatch just behind the fore main. But a couple more hatches each side could be fitted further aft to give easier access. Under those wide decks there is plenty of stowage room.
It is a sitting out, wide deck boat but a couple of trapezes could be fitted - but I'm thinking of, maybe, a DSS foil for extra stabiity and power to carry full sail. The boat is wide and powerful, weighs 120 kgs, the rigs are only 6.5 m (21 feet) so it is not difficult to keep upright, trickier solo but with two, no problem. There are two reef points in each main; they're equal sized, by the way. The rigs go very well upwind - can even outpoint and equal speed of a 24 foot, good local trimaran. No other beach sort of dinghy can come close to it.
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everglades challenge sailboat-pb280035skim2.jpg  everglades challenge sailboat-skimmer2.jpg  
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  #22  
Old 03-07-2012, 04:22 PM
Gary Baigent Gary Baigent is online now
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That last sentence should be slightly corrected; in our arty-farty wankers race club, there is a beautiful 22 foot long, narrow beamed, Howard Chapelle race dinghy (there's a couple of plans in his Boatbuilding book) with a Spencer Javelin rig; sailed expertly and it carries one trapeze and is a fast boat. Singlehanding the Skimmer, the two boats are evenly matched, some points one is better than the other - but with two aboard the black boat, is the faster boat, especially offwind in stronger winds - when they can have capsize problems with their narrow beam.
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  #23  
Old 03-07-2012, 05:30 PM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Everglades Tech

I think it is great to see the high tech multies and that it would be really cool to see high tech high power small monos that could conceivably compete with them. I don't think it will hurt the event one iota-in fact I think it will boost participation and improve the design of small mono's for use by "normal" people in less rigourous events. More power to innovation and design development-there could not be a better event for it.

PS- Gary the rounded hull sections on the Skimmer could be a problem for DSS because the top of the foil would make a draggy acute angle with the hull especially with the curve that allows the foil to be mostly level at a 10 degree angle of heel...... Do you have an idea for a solution? (see illustration below).
I think a solution might be a little bump on the hull in way of the foil slot? I think of all the technologies available to monohulls DSS might be a real winner in Everglades boat design because it doesn't draw any water, yet is capable of drastically powering up a singlehander with no additional weight....

click on image:
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everglades challenge sailboat-skimmer-plus-dss.jpg  
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  #24  
Old 03-07-2012, 05:32 PM
CutOnce CutOnce is offline
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Originally Posted by sharpii2 View Post
It could do very well indeed. With a good, driving Northerly, an alert, competent crew and some really good luck, it could win the race. At least amongst the mono's.

The scary thing is that it will be pushing the sport in the direction of big, un ballasted skiffs that need athletic crews and good luck to even complete the race. Soon, they could come to dominate, inviting in even more extreme types, shoving everyone else out. The event could become one long, dangerous day sail, where meeting at the check points becomes just a formality (one that should be maintained to keep the boats from becoming even more extreme).

The technology is here, the few people who can afford these boats, who are still young and agile enough to make them work, are here, and the media can't be too far behind.

It will just be less interesting and less colorful than a beach full of improvised day sailors, small multihulls, and sailing and paddling kayaks and canoes. It will go the route of the single handed ocean races, where the boats became so ridiculously extreme, they really aren't practical for anything else, and the crews are of such a high professional caliber, no one can relate to them.

Progress.

You gotta love it.
Have to object a little to characterising the i550 as an unballasted skiff. Gougeon's boat still is ballasted - they did eliminate the bulb, but put the same weight (@200 pounds or 88kg) in the lower portion of the daggerboard. They had a daggerboard "crane" to lift it that fit into purpose built slots. They did incorporate a mast tabernacle and moveable prod - but not any more innovative than other boats on the water today.

Their i550 is built from marine plywood - the whole build can be seen in about 180 seconds on the web. They did sheath the outside of the hull with carbon - kind of Gucci, but certainly not a class requirement for strength or structure. Quite a bunch of the class members objected to the Guccification of the design in fact.

Ben Gougeon now sails Hot Canary on Lake Michigan as a tame, kid-friendly family weekend day sailor. Here's his thoughts on the carbon "As far as the carbon goes, it does make the hull a bit stiffer than fiberglass, however fiberglass cloth will also work very well. If your building this boat on a budget its more important to spend the money on quality marine grade plywood than carbon fiber. I recommend 6 oz. fiberglass cloth both inside and out."

Hot Canary was more optimised around the capabilities and physical abilities of it's septuagenarian crew members (Meade & Jan) and the Everglades Challenge than intended to be a rule beater in class racing.

Since West System IS in the business, you would hope their efforts would represent their company well - and Hot Canary certainly is a professional quality effort. My point is that it is still well within homebuilder skills and quality capabilities, even substituting more pedestrian materials.

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  #25  
Old 03-07-2012, 06:17 PM
Gary Baigent Gary Baigent is online now
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"Gary, the rounded hull sections on the Skimmer could be a problem for DSS because the top of the foil would make a draggy acute angle with the hull especially with the curve that allows the foil to be mostly level at a 10 degree angle of heel...... Do you have an idea for a solution?"

Doug, I was thinking of having a very high aspect ratio, asymmetric, straight (not curved for simplicity's sake) DSS foil set horizontal just above the static waterline, with a chord of say, 140-150mm (around 6 inches). you could put any tip you like on it, curved aft, elliptical, whatever, because the windward side, slightly protruding foil end would be clear of water, (because of boat heel) therefore no drag, and the leeward, hydrodynamic tip of your choice would be always immersed.
Thinking of a simple way to move the DSS; there's probably enough cockpit width for a slot above the case - so any water that came aboard would flow out the open transom.
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  #26  
Old 03-07-2012, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Baigent View Post
"Gary, the rounded hull sections on the Skimmer could be a problem for DSS because the top of the foil would make a draggy acute angle with the hull especially with the curve that allows the foil to be mostly level at a 10 degree angle of heel...... Do you have an idea for a solution?"

Doug, I was thinking of having a very high aspect ratio, asymmetric, straight (not curved for simplicity's sake) DSS foil set horizontal just above the static waterline, with a chord of say, 140-150mm (around 6 inches). you could put any tip you like on it, curved aft, elliptical, whatever, because the windward side, slightly protruding foil end would be clear of water, (because of boat heel) therefore no drag, and the leeward, hydrodynamic tip of your choice would be always immersed.
Thinking of a simple way to move the DSS; there's probably enough cockpit width for a slot above the case - so any water that came aboard would flow out the open transom.
=================
HW has mentioned that some of their results tend to favor a lower aspect foil.
All you can do is experiment-but I'd try to make sure the foil was one chord length below the surface.
----
The more I think about it the more I think a scow(like a modified e scow) with a cuddy cabin and DSS would be close to the perfect mono for a two person inside passage? DSS would substantially reduce the crew requirement.....Hmmmm( Think about that Raps!)*
*When I was a kid one of the highlights of the Fiesta of Five Flags regatta besides racing in it was to witness the epic battle between the 28' E scow and 20' Shark catamaran-they were always neck and neck.



Heres the "bump" idea:

click on image for better detail-
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everglades challenge sailboat-skimmer-dss-bump.jpg  
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  #27  
Old 03-07-2012, 06:51 PM
Gary Baigent Gary Baigent is online now
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I wouldn't worry about the bump up to windward; anyway I'd have tapering tips so it would be more like a thickened knife edge. A serendipitous aspect of the DSS would be in self righting should/when/maybe you capsized - if you could pull the DSS foil upwards, you could swing off it while standing on the conventional dagger; would make an excellent lever.
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  #28  
Old 03-07-2012, 07:28 PM
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Richard Woods Richard Woods is offline
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One solution to ensure everyone meets up after the start is to have a forced stop over.

That is what happens in events like the Round Britain, Van Isle 360 etc. For I agree that on these short handed, challenging events meeting the other crews is part of the fun.

So maybe a 12 hour layover at the first stop, and 6 hours for the next two. I read that some crews spent a night in a motel. Sounds like outside assistance to me

Although it does mean that for a few fast boats it would no longer be a weekend race.

But only the entrants and organisers should make those decisions, not armchair sailors/paddlers

I understand that this is the first bad weather race. Even though it is held in shallow warm water off Florida it is still a 300 mile sail/paddle. I think many people have not taken the possible weather conditions seriously enough

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  #29  
Old 03-07-2012, 07:39 PM
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I'm a little amused at the continual sniping at " narrow focus, hair on fire performance sleds that can't handle use outside their narrow focus".

I assume you are talking about the Olympic Tornado that is so narrow focused it wins this "non-around-the-bouys" race every year. The sailors have a lot to do with the win of course. Perhaps more than the boat? Of course if you handicap yourself with a slow boat you might not be able to make that up.

Not everyone wants or needs to win this race of course.

Gary, thanks for the information on the Skimmer. Sounds like you think it could be appropriate for the race with a little development. But don't let me put words in your mouth. Very interesting that you like it better with shrouds.
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  #30  
Old 03-07-2012, 09:20 PM
CutOnce CutOnce is offline
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I'm a little amused at the continual sniping at " narrow focus, hair on fire performance sleds that can't handle use outside their narrow focus".

I assume you are talking about the Olympic Tornado that is so narrow focused it wins this "non-around-the-bouys" race every year. The sailors have a lot to do with the win of course. Perhaps more than the boat? Of course if you handicap yourself with a slow boat you might not be able to make that up.
Wrong. You COULD enter the challenge with a Grand Prix 18. You could enter with a 49er. But this isn't a race. It never was intended to be a race. It is intended to be a challenge - with a variety of conditions (offshore crossing on the Gulf, ICW flatwater, wind & paddling), venues (swamp, riverine, coastal), a long time span (requiring alertness, stamina and good judgement), navigation and picking the right course and a sense of community, fun, co-operation and responsibility for those out there with you.

Some people may value speed around the course, but the real goal for most is the sharktooth necklace and the right to say "Completed".

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Not everyone wants or needs to win this race of course.
It isn't a race, and safe participation really demands a balanced boat design. This challenge can and often does include bad conditions, no wind, too much wind, no water, too much water etc. Specialised race boats aren't balanced in their approach - they are meant to get around the cans faster. I sail trapeze skiffs - and I could not even think about one for this challenge. I'm wiped out after three or four hours sailing mine - I could not imagine sailing one for 24 hours or more.

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