developing new 36' C/R, market research ...

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by lucas adriaanse, Sep 21, 2004.

?

are you interested in market considerations ?

  1. yes, I'd like to contribute to the research

    27.3%
  2. yes, but I'd like to just follow this research

    63.6%
  3. mwaahhh, I am not really interested

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. shut up, please

    9.1%
  1. lucas adriaanse
    Joined: Sep 2004
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    lucas adriaanse amazing-sailing.com

    Market research ?

    It is very hard to do market research for new yachts, unless you're one of the very few big factories with a serious budget. May be this forum can be a place to discuss this part of boatbuilding as well.
    There are plenty of members with lots of knowledge and a broad interest. May be you could contribute to our newest project. (the technical part is no problem as designer John Corby www.johncorbyboats.com is part of our team)

    As a result of the success with our recently launched Corby 34.7 we are about to start a series-produced development of that boat. John Corby designs often win. Simple as that. New to his style is our input, which led to a yacht that is a little wider, especially on the waterline, to allow for interior volume. Nothing excessive, but better for a cruiser-racer. On the other hand the 34.7 is also lighter than John's previous designs. And .... this proves to be no problem ratingwise under ORC Club and likely IMS too. At the same time the boat flies.
    So we feel that we can produce a serious race-winner with lots of interior-space. (standing headroom, plenty of stowage, a little more equipment than your average all out racer)
    Under IRC heavier keeled yachts seemed favoured handicapwise, until last Commodores Cup, where several heavy yachts with smaller sailareas suffered at the light winds. (Bashford 41, HOD35, downrated IMX45 etc.)

    Anyhow, the new 36 will be available with at least 2 different keels. And here's where my first question comes:

    - ! it seems customers are used to find shoes or bulbs on their keels, but a torpedo allows for a different hullshape that makes a yacht a lot faster reaching and downwind. The offset is it can catch weed ...
    - ? would there be enough customers prepared to accept a forward protruding torp, where this is not so common on production yachts, yet ?

    How do people in your area/country feel about this ?


    If y'all are interested in giving some input I'll publish our thoughts and questions to this forum/thread, including some drawings, during our development process to come.

    Thx

    Lucas
    Fasttrack Yachts - NL
    www.corby347.nl
     

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  2. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    I don't really know what I am talking about, but would a sharp razor style leading edge just above the torpedo slice any caught weed off?
     
  3. Sean Herron
    Joined: May 2004
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    Sean Herron Senior Member

    Weed catchers...

    Hello...

    I am just now doing a 22 footer with a lifting keel (dead plumb vertical) - much like the old Hotfoot 20 - I built a 16 footer to similar lines and was happy with it but it did bog out on the sunken kelp fields - most could be scraped off by raising and dropping the keel while sailing or motoring - perhaps an aft raking would help too but I see this as mechanically prone to jams...

    That is a very 'sexy' profile - I would be interested in following this - guys about my marina are constantly griping about catching weed on rather normal fixed fins with swept leading edges - but I put this down to same not being willing to go snorkelling with a plastic scraper - and leaving the barnacles to a yearly pull out...

    Here in the Pacific Northwest kelp and submerged deadheads are the biggest trouble - as for a balanced topedo - it really comes down to owner profiling - are they willing to get wet before and after a race to inspect the keels leading edge - I am - I find a quick swim sobers me up after a day sailing as fast as I can run on land... :)

    SH.
     
  4. sorenfdk
    Joined: Feb 2002
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    sorenfdk Yacht Designer

    I think I've read somewhere that kelp etc. doesn't clear off by itself unless the sweep back of the leading edge is more than 30 degrees (I have never designed keels with that much sweep back, so I don't know if this is true).

    Another thing to remember is that it's not only the protuding part of the bulb, that catches kelp etc. Since the bulb is wider than the keel foil, the forward sides of the bulb will too (maybe not so much, but still...)
     
  5. lucas adriaanse
    Joined: Sep 2004
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    lucas adriaanse amazing-sailing.com

    Okay guys, thanks for participating. I agree on what has been said. Weed/kelp even sticks to your 'normal' fin with 'normal' bulb or shoe. But with marketing it's not what's true it's what will be perceived .... That's what makes it so different from the technical side of boatbuilding.

    About the razorblades ... this seems a little far fetched to me, though I am always on the look out for innovations. But it would seriously deflect the water along the leading edge of the keel. No good.

    Would the new Corby 36 be a true racer, designed and built only for this purpose I would not hesitate and use the torp. The Ker designs use them and John Corby's latest success, the 41.5 Wahoo racing in the USA (winner Block Island by a large margin) too.
    But what will the 'performance sailor' on an ultrafast cruiser/racer think. I tend to think we should use the torp and set a new standard for cruiser/racers. After all, if you follow the majority you will never come up ahead.

    I'll keep watching what you guys think.

    Thx

    Lucas
     
  6. sorenfdk
    Joined: Feb 2002
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    sorenfdk Yacht Designer

    If you do use the protuding torpedo, I sincerely hope you'll be successfull!

    I too believe that this is the way to go, but unfortunately our customers seem to think otherwise. How nice it would be to be able to point at a successfull cruiser/racer with this arrangement!
     
  7. SeaDrive
    Joined: Feb 2004
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    SeaDrive Senior Member

    Given transportation, are you going to be price competitive on the west coast?

    Here in New England, kelp is not a problem. The big issue on the US east coast is draft. Six and a half feet of draft is perhaps common for a 35' boat these days, but it is still very limiting for a cruiser.
     
  8. lucas adriaanse
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    lucas adriaanse amazing-sailing.com

    Seadrive, since the dollar is quite low (or the Euro high ...) I wouldn't think about exporting to the US of A rightaway. Can't tell if we would be competitive on price. Fact is that the boat would most likely do very well under PHRF, since it will have the same characteristics as 'Wahoo', the Corby 41.5 I mentioned.

    May be we could be competitive in price for a boat in kit-form.

    Have to see what the future has in store for us.

    Lucas
     
  9. Sean Herron
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    Sean Herron Senior Member

    It is all upkeep...

    Lucas - others...

    No question on advantages of mid hung torpedoes - just today - the old Scheel keel bits - but really it comes down to the owner...

    Who are you selling to - the weekend beer swiller who likes to scream at his crew - or the true owner who knows he must keep his boat clean...

    I think at least - you can sell any performance advantage - but so long as you can sell the maintenance requirement as well...

    If it helps - at the RVYC (Royal Vancouver) - most skip/owners post for a crew diver who is the 'sea grass grunt' - the non smoker snorkel owner who is willing to inspect all under water appendages before and after a race - ie: ME - but then I order doubles and steak in the cafe - for the favour...

    You have to sell the tech. for what it is - but most important - against it's maintenance requirement and time for same...

    Skipps want to win - and winning can be a lazy pursuit...

    Am I making any sense...

    SH.
     
  10. lucas adriaanse
    Joined: Sep 2004
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    lucas adriaanse amazing-sailing.com

    Sean, these are exactly the pro's & con's I have to deal with. I tend to vote in favorite of the torp; as I said before, if you follow the pack it is hard to come up ahead. If people don't mind crawling through their boats they can buy J105 or alike. If they agree to sail a little slower but still on a very good boat they buy an X362 or even X362 Sport. The Bashford 36 is more what I have in mind (also torp I think), but it doesn't do well on rating (or is difficult to get up to speed).
    I trust in John Corby to perform again with this design as he did with the 34.7. The 36 being a direct development of the 34.7. So ... I believe I can promise top speed and good rating, which would make the 36 stand out from the crowd; for a cruiser-racer, or near racer-cruiser. I believe that niche is worthwhile investing in.

    Though prices should be around 12-18% lower than the equivalent J109, I don't intend to sell hundreds of the new 36, a little exclusive isn't bad.

    Thx for your participation
    Lucas
     
  11. Sean Herron
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    Sean Herron Senior Member

    Niche marketing...

    Hello...

    What is left but niche marketing - there are so many used plastic ex-racers out there - and there are also a lot of very rich folks who love to have something that is different - damned fast - technically mysterious - and produced in limited numbers...

    Also I believe that the basic physics that have lead to long waterlines and vertical stems and high freeboard and radiused sheers to eliminate upwind drag etc. have become accepted asthetics with the racer clique and with the general purcahsing public...

    Sounds like a go to me - looks amazing - let's face it Ford and Benz have done their thing - the Wrights did their bit - and here we all are a century later - and we have been building boats for many more than just this last century...

    Niche marketing is all that is left in the production build game - that and roto molded kayaks.... :)

    Best of...

    SH.
     
  12. dougfrolich
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    dougfrolich Senior Member

    kelp cutters have been used for a long time and they work quite well, Basically they are just a rod with a blade attached at the bottom, the whole thing housed within the leading edge of the keel. The photo shows the kelp cutter housing in the interior of a R/P design-just beind the mast partner.
     

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  13. lucas adriaanse
    Joined: Sep 2004
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    lucas adriaanse amazing-sailing.com

    To all,

    as promised when starting this threat ... here is more.

    We have now decided to go for the torpedo. On paper it makes the boat so much faster on a reach & downwind. And Corby's 41.5 design "Wahoo" has shown in the USA how good this set up is. (beating larger Farr's, N/M's and R/P's.) So definitely a torp.
    The 1850kg keel+torp gives the boat 48% ballast, by the way.

    A little more explanation on the rest of the design:

    On the interior design we also have taken a different approach. No double aftcabins, but gimballed pipecots. Which leaves us a space of 55cm between the pipecots and the galley / navstation to use. Several option there:
    1. off-watch seat (25° slope), with 2 x 50ltr watertanks under
    or
    2. extra lockers, with watertanks under
    or
    3. waterballasttanks 200 ltr per side to give some additional stifness for shorthanded sailing.
    4. for a real cooking enthousiast the galley could even be extended aftwards or an extra icebox placed in this 55cm area or ..... whatever.

    The 36 will be a big, fat boat. Hull surface is nearly 50 m², which is about equal to old one-tonners. But parking an 11-meter yacht is always less expensive than parking a 12-meter ..... There should be plenty of room down bellow, with a 1m90 headroom in the maincabin and still 1m85 in heads and ownerscabin forward.

    The rudder is further aft than you would expect. This has been done to provide for optimum space in the cockpit. With a blade that is 1m85 deep she will not suffer from this chosen position upwind, while downwind it even gives better steering.

    Angles of coamings and seats in the cockpit have been carefully chosen (and tried out) for steady and ergonomical seeting under all conditions.

    Well, that's all for now. And again .... your comments and ideas are welcome. This threat is ment to do some market research ....

    Lucas
     

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  14. asathor
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    asathor Senior Member

    Feedback to market research...............

    My next boat will not be featuring a large basement w/o decent daylight.

    My spouse is entirely entiteled to some say and if we are going to do some weekend sailing between racing, living in a basement should not have to be one of the requirements on any boats even a racer. Our boat is 200 miles away on Lake Superior so we stay on it.

    Consider breaking with the crowd and give this thing some day light. Think about it this way; the boat may gain a few pounds at an inconvenient hight level about the waterline but our spouses would not worry about a price difference of 10000 "pounds" because the boat would be DOUBLE useful.

    Good hatches and properly molded-in, fully reinforced receptacles for some "plexiglass" windows (or whatever you use) are not expensive, and cutting random holes in the cabintop after you build it leads to leaks as we have seen on 99.9% of the boats out there (so you don't have to try that method). The ones that faces upwards or that you may walk on can be thick of course - spouses in this "class" are often pretty smart and can understand these kinds of things.

    Sure I am frustrated, there are very few boats out there with even a well integrated Pilot House. Some of the "designer" plastic boats do have larger "windows" in their "basements" but they are not exactly pretty or functional.

    Thanks for considering this feedback.
    Asathor
     

  15. asathor
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    asathor Senior Member

    It can look better too.......

    I couldn't help but play with your drawing a bit.
     

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