Desperate to sail 2015

2nd thought, forget about the batten. It will make folding the sail up almost impossible.

Take it to a flat area, perhaps a parking lot, and lay it down, with all the spars attached and under tension.

Then cut a slit in the sail, that is parallel to its aft edge, and near the middle of the bulge. The slit should be about as long as the bulge, too.

Pull the material together until the bulge flattens, then tape it on both sides.

This will probably not get rid of the bulge entirely, but it should decrease its size and depth considerably. It may even make the sail stronger in that region as well.

Looking at your sailing photos, I noticed the blade of the oar is to weather. This means you have a lee helm. The board box is probably too far aft.

Moving it forward might accomplish two things:

1.) It might improve your boats balance, and
2.) I will certainly improve the steering leverage of the steering sweep (the oar on the transom).

I would be tempted to move it all the way forward to the back edge of the seat. I would try this first, even before I'd try to doctor the sail.

Because of the type of sail you have and the shape of the hull and the lack of a proper rudder, you may never be able to get the bow to point dead downwind.

What you can do is pull the board up and do a series of down wind tacks.

The boat will crab considerably and may end up going down wind faster than you think. Remember, it is not necessarily actually going were its pointed.

 

Bad news. I was trying to fix the wrinkles by cutting, overlapping and so on, only to discover it makes things worse. Then I though that maybe the last option I have is to remove all the sticky tape which creates wrinkles in the first place. As I attempted that, the sail tore up, irreparably. It is now not only wrinkled, but with huge tears and delaminated sections.

To add to the suffering, I called all the hardware stores around me to see if anyone has Tyvek. There is nothing in 100 miles radius, and driving any further would beat the purpose (I have only 13 days left here by the lake).

So now I'm sitting with all the rig, except I don't have a sail, nor nothing to make it out of. Even if I had, I don't believe I can make it good enough to make significant difference when beating upwind.

So here I sit, with this huge failure at hand. No idea what to do now.

 

Tarpaulin. Works just as well. I wouldn't bother putting shape into the sail. Maybe try a flat sail and you can always add some shape later.

Edit: I would still add some luff and foot round. Your sail actually looked quite good to me. Wrinkles have very little effect.

Sit as far forward as you can. Try to lift the transom out of the water. Maybe you could attach the oar closer to the blade to give you more leverage?

I wouldn't stress about sailing performance. Just enjoy being out on the water. It's a holiday!

 

Thanks, but tarpaulin is not available for purchase in our country unless you buy whole rolls - and still, it is very difficult to find. I have never seen it, although I searched a lot.

Well, if wrinkles have little effect, then why the boat has such horrible windward performance? Balance is within norms, leeboard is big enough, and I'm pretty sure I do most of the things right as far as sailing itself goes.

Well, I'm not looking for racing performance, but when you tack back and forth for several hours only to travel several hundred meters, it ain't much fun... Much frustration instead.

 

What is the purpose of this exercise anyway?

It's only a 200 mile drive. 5-6 hrs? You have 13 days. How would that little day trip defeat any purpose?

You are putting a lot of effort into trying to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. Maybe the boat doesn't work very well as a sailboat is because it was never meant to be one.

 

The purpose is to make a boat that I could learn to sail with, as well as enhancing boatbuilding skills for further projects. I'd like to be able to make whole-day passages of many miles in this lake under various wind conditions.

What I mean is that the sailing rig should be practical enough. As of now, rowing makes much more sense.

 

Can you use a plastic tarp like the blue ones? That ought to last a week anyways.

 

If you can find blue tarps as Sam mentions, you can make a most satisfactory sail. Sails made of that material are common, very cheap too. The blue tarps are made in several different thicknesses. In fact they are not always blue but the material is the same. It is a plastic with a scrim interior. An 8 foot by 10 foot economy grade tarp costs about five dollars here in the US. I have used them as boat covers and they last for several months in my Florida climate. The cheapest, thinnest, grade is what you want for the sail.

Those tarps are everywhere. I even suspect that the Mongolians make their Yurts of the stuff. You can sew it, tape it, or ultrasonically weld it together. Most of them are of Chinese origin. You wont need to go to China to find them. If you need to drive a hundred kilometers to find them, it is better than ruining all your valiant effort of the summer.

A fellow with your ingenuity can figure a way utilize the grommets that are already in the edges of the tarps. Here's hoping that you can get past this miserable experience with the Tyvek, and get something that works better.

 

Hi Laukejas.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience.

What probably brought you to grief is poor process control in making the sail, and maybe lack of a real rudder.

I suggest you write down all the measurements of the sail, then varnish or paint all the parts you have already made, The mast, the boom the sprit, and so on.

See if you can store them safely until next year.

Once home, see if you can get some more Tyvek and a flat place to work.

There you can make a new sail that is at least flat.

I'd go even one step further and make a real rudder and support structure to attach it to the boat.

Next summer, you will have all this stuff, and, with some tweaking, you will have a real sailboat.

Below is a sketch of my "desperate to sail" attempt.

It is a four man vinyl raft with the sailing structure sitting on top. The crossbeam and the keelson (for lack of a better term) is held on the raft with two straps, made of polypropylene lounge chair webbing.

The clamp boards are held on with three bolts each, with wing nuts, for easy removal.

The sails themselves are made of 4 mil polyethylene drop cloths and duck tape.

With two people on board, it sailed surprisingly well up wind. It even beat a real sailboat of about its size in a tacking duel.

It was a real workout to steer, though.

With one person on board, it became unmanageable. It would round up wickedly, then be driven back.

Now that I've sketched it out, with the dimensions I remember after 40 years, I think I can see what the problem was.

I usually sat on top of the keelson. My brother usually sat inside the raft.

The fore and aft trim was probably far better with him aboard than it was with me by myself. The clamp boards were probably getting less "bite" on the water and the boat just didn't have mass to keep up decent momentum.

Now, some forty years later, I can see two things I've could have done.

1.) I could have extended the clamp boards at least 6 inches deeper. They were probably losing at least half their effective area with just me sitting on the keelson. This is because the outer inflation tube probably scrunched against the inside of the boards, and the bad fore and aft trim probably lifted them several inches higher.

2.) I could have made a proper rudder for it. The rudder would have certainly had more area than the paddle blade. But more importantly, it would have given me maybe ten times as much mechanical advantage.

Had I'd done that and cut a new sail (which I had already planned on doing), I probably would have had a workable sailboat, that was very portable and very easy to car top.

Instead, I sold the raft for a few dollars less than I paid for it, and used the wood for other projects.

 

SamSam, messabout, sharpii2, thank you for your encouragement, support and ideas. Your raft design, sharpii2, is truly ingenious, my respect. I'll analyze it thoroughly this evening.

Having called at least 20 companies around me, the best answer I got is this: we can sell you whole roll of Tyvek, which is 1,5x75m, and costs around 120$. Naturally, I refused...

It seemed that all is lost, with no way out, but...

I refuse to give up. Any option is better than none. These waters must be tamed, that wind must be harnessed.

This morning, a friend who keeps an eye on this forum called me, and said - hey, why don't you listen to the guy about the tarp? It might be even better than Tyvek.

And so I went 10 miles to the nearest town, and got myself a big (4x6m) polypropylene tent, which, as it should be, happens to be blue. I also bough additional sticky tape, tailor's scissors, a set of needles, some very strong thread, and some additional rope. The guy at the hardware store, shocked, asked me - what will you use all this for? And so I told him the whole story about my desperate attempt to set sail in my local lake. Amazed by it, he gave me a 40% discount

With tarp that big, there are no practical limitations on the size or shape of the sail I can make. All that restricts it are spars: mast is 245cm (usable length is 200cm due to mast step and partner), boom is 230cm, and yard is 330cm (both have 10cm less usable length, for I want to leave 5cm on each end for tensioning the sail)

It seems that mast and it's fixation to the hull is extremely robust, and can take much more than I originally thought. And with winds so light here, I realize that 4,5m^2 sail is not enough.

It seems to me that with these spars the largest sail area could be achieved by lug rig, which I considered before. I hope it will also set better than sprit, and with conventional raising, I can add battens and reef points, if needed.

I made some sketching, and this is the largest standing lug rig that I could manage with these spars (leaving 28cm in mast for halyard block, and 5 cm on boom and yard ends for tensioning the sail). The sail is 5.71m^2. I can push it to 6m^2 if I leave less space for halyard block.

Here it is:

http://static.dyp.im/DwihC9IOyf/cef825e67e4c1e3a2f8788b8de4ea60e.JPG

If anyone can advise if this is a good idea, I would appreciate it. As I said, I need maximum area, and the reason I chose such high aspect is for sail the be more weatherly.

Also, I have never worked with tarp, so if anyone can shed any advice, I would appreciate it. Petros, if you're reading this, I heard you made some sails from tarp. What is the best method? Glue with sticky tape or sew? I'm prepared for both options. Where would I add reef point, if any? Except for corner reinforcements (I took their style from "Sailmaker's Apprentice"), does this sail need any more reinforcements? I will overlap all the edges, and install a line inside, going all around the perimeter. Is that enough, or do I need more?

Thank you again for your time. I will start the work on the sail as soon as anyone can answer these questions. This time, I have both material, tools and flat space for the job.

 

Never give up!

Summary of methods you can use:
http://www.pdracer.com/sail/sail-shaping/

Beware that the dart method sounds simple, but I've tried it and never had good results. I'd go either broad seeming or just luff and foot round.

Here's a guide on "high quality" poly sail making by Todd Bradshaw: http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sails and Plans/!POLY-LA.PDF

He is a master of small sail making.

And here some info specifically for lugs (but not tarp): http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sails and Plans/!CLCSKER.PDF

Lug plan by Andrew Linn / Welsford?:
http://www.toledocommunityboathouse.com/plans/welsford100/index.htm

I like the shape you have drawn, but with the long yard attached so far forward I think the sail would probably not set well, or be under huge stress.

I would recommend going to a balanced lug, if you can move the board forward a little. Why? This should help a bit with your downwind steering problem. (More like a square sail).

Any chance you could extend the mast or add a "top mast"?. Maybe your tent came with some poles?

 

I certainly won't try darts! It seems to me that it is very advanced technique that makes sense only for experienced sailmakers... As for broadseaming and round edges, I'm not sure it will help with loose-footed lug...

What do you mean by "so far forward"? Too much of the yard is in front of the mast? I thought it was the opposite...

Good point. I'll redraw it in a second.

Sadly, no. As for mast extending, I really don't want to do that. I tried it before with dipterous results.

P.S. Attaching redrawn sketch, balanced lug. Sail area 5.85m^2. Reduced distance from yard to the top of the mast to 15cm. I can add some area by lowering the boom angle, at expense of reduced visibility and some headache.

http://static.dyp.im/PdfzffXLLb/d840bb9f48e63891f26e084643986c15.JPG

Would this sail set better? I have some doubts if the leech will be tensioned enough, with the yard being so far forward...

 

Those aren't balanced lug rigs.
http://www.clcboats.com/life-of-boats-blog/lug-nuts-lug-rigs.html
I don't know how the internet works there, can you do google image searches?
Your arrangement won't work as there is no way to haul the yard up like it's shown with the mast as shown. Most of them have a line tied to the yard towards the center, running to a pulley on the mast.
A balanced lug, (with sail area forward of the mast) is probably what you want to improve sailing performance.

 

SamSam, could you please clarify? How exactly lugsail is raised, then?

I have lashed a rope to the spars in exact length to mimic the behavior of the sail (at least it's edges). I lashed the halyard to the center of the yard.

But when I pulled on halyard, it didn't raise yard properly - the peak got up to the skies, but the front edge of the "sail" didn't tension at all.
I tried moving halyard attachment point forward. If it's too forward, then the peak stays down, while the throat moves up too much.

I managed to find the "sweet spot", but it's so tiny. This can't be right. What am I missing? Do I need two halyards for throat and peak, like in gaff rig?

 

Please, help me out here. I worked for 2 hours now, and I cannot raise the sail with this configuration. If the peak goes up, the throat slides down. If the throat rides up, the peak stays down.

How is this supposed to work with single halyard?

P.S. I managed to get the yard to it's position with 2 halyards, but it doesn't work well. I don't understand. This isn't supposed to require two halyards. How do I raise yard to that position with single one?