design for light airs

The pictures show it on it's lines fine, except with the boat at anchor all the chain and anchor in the water seems to lift the bow.

I used that search function, thank you, and came up with nothing in steel or aluminum for my size 31 - 36' on the West coast of USA. I'm having much better luck with local publications and websites.

BTY, how did you know we travel heavy. And to think at one point I was enamored with trimarans. There is a Jim Brown 37' plywood tri on the market right now I haven't had time to go see. Cheap. Now there's a light airs boat. I used to backpack and climb. I know I could go light. My wife on the other hand . . . .

 

Modern boats from 80-ties would be between 5.5 - 6.tons (light ship), displ. For example Van de Stadt 34:
http://www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds391.htm
or Epervier 10.10 (look at the "Les monocoques hauturiers")
http://www.enthousiaste.com/

Paulo, keep in mind that this is an old fashion, slow revolving engine. It's torque is high, it turns big (adjustable pitch) propeller so, it's much more powerful then modern, light, high speed engines of the same HP rating.

This Sabb engine also has removable cylinder liners, so can be rebuilt on the sight in the unlikely case of to much wear. Spare parts are still avaible.

 

Wow, I thought Brewer's 35' design at 15,500 pounds was light for steel.

Those boats displace almost the same as my old Wauquiez. Wonder what the plate thickness is? Tankage on the Van de Stadt doesn't work, however. We are comparing apples to oranges. My boat under consideration (Koopman) has four (4) times the fuel and more than three (3) times the water tankage as the Van de Stadt

 

Milan, I don’t know much about engines but I know that the Saab is a great engine. But 10hp are 10hp. That boat has a Max speed of 5K and a cruising speed of 4.5K.

I will bet that that cruising speed while motoring is a no no, regarding selling the boat.

With a modern 19 hp engine that boat will have a max speed of about 6k and will cruise at about 5.5k. And if the boat had a 29hp engine, than it would even be easier to sell, even if that would translate only in more half a knot of speed and in a shorter autonomy with a superior consumption.

Milan, I have said that I liked the boat...the engine also. I only said that it was that engine that was making that boat such a bargain, and that is a good thing, because the engine is also a good engine, if you got plenty of time and like it slow and easy

 

I agree

It's definitely possible to build (in steel) lighter then that. Most of small steel boats are massively over built. Plate thickness VDS 34 is normal, nothing exceptionally thin. They do use advantage of multi chine to save the weight - lower plates are thicker then higher plates. I'm not sure for the scantlings of VDS 34, but I have study plans with a material list somewhere at home for similar smaller (9 m) design, I'll try to find it and see the plate thickness.

Van de Stadt versus Koopmans - both offices are designing excellent boats. Van de Stadt was oriented to innovation, modern, performance oriented cruisers. Dick Koopmans is very respected designer specialized in long distance cruisers with classic lines. He was originally racing sailor, also has a vast cruising experience, sailed hundreds of thousands of miles, a lot of that in high latitudes. As most of his boats are specificaly designed for voyaging, they have large load caring capacity with a lot of tankage. But VDS boats also have very good cruising record.

Here is the VDS 34 being built "quick assembly" way:
http://www.stadtdesign.com/English/history11.htm

 

Many thanks.

From my other thread in the Metal Boat Building section (about paint):

"Full keel with cutaway forefoot cutter built by Yachtbouw Klein in Sappemeer, Holland in 1985 to a Koopman design. Very well maintained. Circumnavigated without incident. Mercedes diesel. A cruising design. Thanks for your interest.

[Edit: Google is telling me that maybe it's spelled Jachtbouw, not Yachtbouw. Sorry if I got it wrong, but I'm just relating what I get from the broker.]"

Can you comment about the builder?

 

Is this the boat that you are interested in?

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1504081/0

I think that the name of the boatyard is "Jachtbouw Esscher" in Sappemeer and Derk Klein was the owner.

Milan, take a look here and see if I am right:

http://www.nieuweboten.nl/zeiljachten/408237/Koopmans_Vanguard_1987.html

 

Hey Hiracer, probably that boat is a work of art, becouse Klein is an Artist :

"Derk, from Holland, used to be a builder of yachts, and brings the skills of a master craftsman to his metal pieces of steel and scrap metal. "

http://www.sandpointartworks.com/metal-art.phtml

 

Vega:

Ssshhh. Keep it quiet! We don't need the rest of the world looking at this boat right now.

This is too weird. I've seen their stuff before, at Sand Point. My wife loved it. Too weird.

 

24,000 pounds displacement with a tiller. What does one think about that?!!

BTY, I still think the displacement is wrong. 24,000 lbs on 34' don't seem right to me. 29 lwl.

Talk about slow in light airs . . . . to come full circle.

 

Guess I've worn everybody out.

Displacement is dropping. Now claimed to be 22,000 but that is from a 2001 survey. What does a surveyor know about displacement? Only what he's told, I assume. So that's not particularly weighty evidence about displacement. (Very punny, me.)

Seriously, what about the tiller issue? ANY comments on a tiller for a 17K to 22K pound long keel boat? All of my experience has been with fin keels and wheel steering.

We travel to see the boat tomorrow!

 

About the weight you are probably right... and wrong.

If you look at the Koopmans site, you are going to see that the small long keelers and traditional V shaped boats are about the same dimensions that the boat you are interested in.Look at designs nºs 263 and 400 and you can see that the displacements of those boats are 18 297 lbs and 18 187 lbs.

http://www.dickkoopmans.nl/uk/index.htm

So, assuming that your boat has a lightweight of 18 500 lbs, a full load weight of 24 000lbs gives a carrying capacity of 5 500 lbs. With full tanks the boat will weigh about 19 800 lbs and
4200 lbs are left for crew and luggage. That is a large number, I would expect about 3 300 lbs for that, but in the end is not a big difference.

Probably Sthephen Ditmore is right and they have considered also the weight of the dinghy & equipment on deck, anchors & chain, winches & windlass ,electronics and in that case the weight seems right.


The Koopmans is a very good boat. It is a true passagemaker and can carry the kind of storage to circle around the world. If I have understood correctly, that boat has just done that.

Hiracer, there are no miracles and for giving the kind of seaworthiness and carrying capacity a 34ft needs to do that, you need a HEAVY boat.

So, if you are looking for a boat to do that and want a 34ft, it will have to be heavy. If you want the extra safety a steel hull will give you, it will be heavier. Small steel boats are particularly heavy and Koopmans designed very strong boats, with high Displ/Ballast ratios, boats that are hard to beat in seaworthiness and strength for their size. His boats have a very good used value, I mean the boat holds its value very well, particularly in Europe.

A boat like this doesn’t like light winds. Even if you mount a bowsprit and a huge geenacker, I think that even so the boat will need about 10k of wind to do about 4 or 5k.

If you want a boat capable of circumnavigation, go for it.

If you don’t need that kind of boat, but want a boat capable of good performance in light winds, with good coastal seaworthiness, lots of interior space and reasonable good carrying capacity, look at other kind of cruisers, for instance at the new Elan 344, that was elected 2006 European Boat of the Year.

http://www.elan-marine.com/marine/impression/344galery.html

It costs new about the same money as the Koopmans, and of course, it is a completely different boat, a good boat but not better, nor worse than the Koopmans. It all depends on what you want from the boat....about that, you have to make up your mind.

 

In the English version of the site, I don't see displacement. Were you getting those numbers from the English version? My page says, "This is the short version of the Dutch site." No. 263 has no link to the drawing, for example.

The boat we're reviewing is not the V-shape design.

Do you see any ballast figures, so I can estimate B/D ratios?

And are those sail area with 100% foresail and no staysail? Is that how it's done in EuropeP I'm gonna have to compute some SA/Ds to compare because I don't think I'm going to get enough information on this particular boat to deduce SA/D. I'm thinking of emailing the designer, but I don't have a design number.

* * *

I concur completely about this boat not moving in light airs. Survey says she sails beam reach in flat seas in 6-8 knots of wind at 4.1 knots, with 100% foresail, trysail, and main.

I started this tread because I have felt that I have basic decision to make in my next boat. Heavy and slow (steel), or plastic and faster (which may or may not mean fast). I had hope to find a magic steel boat (the Buchanan old school of design) that might mitigate the slowness some. I've given up on that.

The purpose of this next boat is to spend retirement years dinking around the obscure points between Seattle and Alaska. We love that environment.

Because of the tides and rocks, and lack of general marina development, a long range cruise in metal serves our purposes better than plastic, I think. Others will differ, which is fine. But one of the things I see in my father, and sometimes in me (now that I'm on the wrong side of 50) is that the aging process doesn't facilitate perfect decision making all the time. I would like a boat that covers for me in my old age if I goof every once in a great while. So I really like metal. Beside, I've been there, and frankly it intimidates me. Every sailor I know I from my Alaska days has stories of coming off the hook in the middle of the night (and this class includes many people have a transited the Pacific or the world). These are tough waters to anchor in, especially Kenai Fjords National Park, our favorite.

And they are still finding new rocks, all the time. It's not just the hull I worry about. I think about the rudder too. Tankage is very important.

And the weather is postively lousy. I should have my head examined.

Which leads to the possibility of maybe, someday, a trip to Baha Mexico or Hawaii--but we don't have the skills yet for that, and I question whether my wife ever will. We'll see. I'm not holding my breath. Low expectations seem to work best.

Back to Alaska and the inside passage, Vancouver Island, Queen Charlotte Island, etc. It's tends to be light airs or blowing very hard. So, I can live without light air performance. I just have to know that's what I'm getting myself into. (And I do.) We'll be motoring when everybody else does, and then anchoring when it blows. If we are brave and good, go for a sail.

I think this boat might work. I understand that it's a high quality specimen. My last boat was a good boat (1983 Wauquiez 33' Gladiateur) and I do find it hard stepping down in quality. Quality of construction and quality of design. I don't see this as a step down in either, even though it is a boat of a diametrically different design objective.

I would love to get displacement and balllast figures of comparable boat sizes, but I must be going blind because I don't see them. LOA, LWL, Beam, draft, sail area, yes; displacement, no. Been to that website before. Thx.

 

OK, I'm really blind. I altered the web address and got into the Dutch version fo the site. Where is displacement?

 

Loa (m) Lwl (m) Boa (m) D (m) V (m3) Design No
10.5 8.8 3.44 1.5 8.3 263

The V stands for volume and it is the water displaced by the boat.
8.3m3 of water weighs about 8.3T.

The Elan is not a low quality boat, it has about the same quality of a Dehler and about the same as a modern Wauquiez.

But it seems that you have already decided.

For me the classical style of the koopmans makes it a boat that will always be a classic and a more beatiful boat than any of the modern cruisers of that size. But the interior space is also really small if compared with modern interiors of boats of that size.

Good luck