Design Challenge: Trapwing-"on-deck" ballast-12'-22'

This setup is going to have the acronym of TPBS as a function of its marketing position?... Really? You're going to put out a product that has the component identity of it being BS?

Perhaps a different clever acronym is in order?

I get that there might be electronic systems already in use for sheeting and steering. That's great. But, the stuff you previously described is of a whole order of magnitude more complex, when it comes to electronically controlled commands. I'm not a systems circuit, or chipset designer. Having an automatic anything in this case implies accelerometers, ROM chipsets, coded software and a whole host of stuff that will begin to push the costs associated with obtaining one of these boats, well out of reach of the very sailors with whom you intend to associate the product.

This, without the excruciating reality of all the attendant liability issues that are sure to insert themselves in your life.

Lastly, as you know, I am not a proponent of overly complex anything as an answer to what ails the sailing industry. This business has been enduring an on-going ugly experience over the last many years, as fewer and fewer boats of just about every type and size are being sold worldwide. Those that are enjoying something in the realm of sales success are either very small, or very large. Of the very small, the less complex designs are way ahead of those that are at the techy, complex end of the scale.

Looking to produce a craft that has a very high potential to be fraught with teething problems, is loaded with potentially expensive gear as a function of its base operating posture and an absolute insurance nightmare, is not the path to manufactured sailboat success.

I wish you luck if you insist on the pursuit. But, in this market condition, it is an ill-advised activity.

 

The electrical system for moving the ballast will be very simple and may be adapted from the already existing system made for the Martin 16 and other small boats. The characteristics of the Trapeze Power Ballast System in terms of how it is used is very similar to that of a sheet system. The system is extremely reliable.
The only "automatic" system would be the "return to center" feature of the system in the event of a knockdown-very simple according to the experts I've talked with.
An optional system would be a sort of "cruise control" that would operate the Trapeze Power Ballast System autonomously. I'd oppose that being class legal because it's so much fun sailing with a movable ballast system under the skippers fingertip control-and there is a skill level involved in positioning the ballast correctly- as there is in any dinghy.
Radio control systems have been used for over 10 years with exactly this kind of control and zero failures.
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The key to the Trapwing concept is providing an exciting new type of sailing that is not available now anywhere at any price. This is an exciting adaptation of High Performance Sailing Technology with new movable ballast technology that creates an entirely new way to enjoy sailing. Supplemented by modern adaptive systems the boat will be able to be sailed competitively by a wide range of able-bodied and disabled sailors. The competitive weight range of the boat is the widest of any High Performance singlehander.

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Here's more on some of the Martin systems that may be used on this boat:

No Boundaries. No Limitations.JOYSTICK MODULE | WINDLASS | SIP & PUFF

The Martin 16 Power-Assist System is a modular, self-contained, portable power-assisted steering and sheeting system, that can make almost any sailboat accessible. Power-Assist Systems are used on the Martin 16, Sonar, Freedom 20, Catalina 22, Cal 20, 2.4mR and Challenger Tri-maran, and even a Tripp 40 offshore sport boat!


Power-Assist Systems are now in service at DSA programs and on private boats in Canada, USA, UK, Japan, Greece, Australia and Puerto Rico. At Mobility Cup, Canada’s International Regatta for Sailors with Disabilities, more than 15 high-level quad sailors use Martin 16 Power-Assist Systems to compete on the same starting line with 45 other sailors. The Power-Assist System has changed the lives of these sailors, and more like them each new season

Joystick Module
Self-contained, portable, weatherproof system components are intended for outdoor use in marine environment. The Power-Assist System can be installed in minutes on any standard Martin 16 sloop, or any other tiller-steered sloop (Freedom 20, Sonar, Catalina 22, etc.)


Power-Assist Joystick Module contains the main control computer and a joystick control in a weatherproof enclosure. The Joystick Module is light and can be positioned comfortably beside the sailor – to the left or right – or on the sailor’s lap if necessary. Built-in "armrest" provides support for the sailor's arm for familiar wheelchair-like operation.

L.E.D. battery meter provides battery state indicator before and during your sailing session. Any 12V power source can provide power to the Joystick Module: 1) the portable Power-Assist Battery Module or 2) a “house battery” on boats equipped with 12V DC power.

Auxiliary motor control (option). The Mk IV Joystick Module will control up to three additional bi-directional DC motors, via the ““y” axis of the joystick. These auxiliary functions may be used to control the jib trim, boom vang, or outhaul, for example.

Emergency Disengage of the helm drive motor in the case of system malfunction is provided via a “quick-release” pin that can be operated from the rear seat of the Martin 16. (Note: Emergency Disengage is not accessible to helmsperson.)

Wireless Remote Control (option)* provides wireless control of all functions of the Power-Assist System, using a convenient and compact “key fob” remote control (automotive style). The Remote Control may be used by a person sailing with a sip & puff sailor, or an Instructor in a motor boat.
* May be a perfect option for controlling the Trapeze Power Ballast System using the rail seat option(not class legal vs sit-in competitors)

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Windlass Power Winch

Martin 16 Windlass is a self-contained, portable power winch system for the main and jib sheets of any standard Martin 16 sloop. The Windlass may be used stand-alone or in conjunction with the Power-Assist Joystick or Sip & Puff Control Module. The Windlass installs in minutes on top of the Martin 16 keel, and main and jib sails are trimmed in unison via either a large toggle switch on the rear panel of the Windlass enclosure, or remotely by the joystick or sip & puff stalk (or Wireless Remote Control key fob).

Emergency Release of the sheets in the case of system malfunction is provided on both winch drums via a “quick-release” pin that can be operated with minimum manual dexterity.

Any 12V power source can provide power to the Sip & Puff Module: 1) the portable Power-Assist Battery Module or 2) a “house battery”
on boats equipped with 12V DC power.

The systems above available here:
http://www.martin16.com/resources/autobrochure.pdf

click on images:

 

Produce a craft? What makes you think there is going to be an attempt to "produce a craft"?

 

Are you the Doug lord who was a member of AMYA and sailed a 36/600 class sailboat.
sail fast

 

According to the experts with whom I have talked (all-weather, 24 hour race car electronic systems designers) the systems are not simple. In addition to the array of accelerometers as suggested, there would also be a serious need for electronic gyro sensors which can sense movement in all the various axes involved.

Reliability has but a small part to play in the overall design of such a system. If the software, as written, does not correctly interact with the available hardware, you have serious issues that could involve a wholesale replacement of components, as well as a complete rewrite of the software code in order to provide the suggested capabilities.

None of this is simple, no matter what you've been told.

You still have not addressed the issues of an overly complex boat in a time frame in which complex boats are not selling well... mostly due to cost issues and an overly complex learning curve for the sailor, but also related to the greater issue of a seriously hammered global economy. Please resond with a cohesive argument that addresses the issues of a flat economy for boats of this general type.

All of these areas are systemic issues for any designer. To ignore them is to admit that the craft is but a toy for personal consumption. If that is the case, then more power to you... except that you have indicated that it is aimed at specific markets and that, very simply, is all about a commercial effort. You aren't a paraplegic sailor, are you?

To be more precise, you are obligated to conform your goals to a solution paradigm that is achievable. These aren't my rules, they are standing realities in the manufacturing world. Right now, I do not see any of that happening.

I encourage you to adjust your target market, or deal with the issues of an overly complex craft. It's one, or the other... but not the cherry picked component elements you choose because they are the easiest areas to which you can formulate a canned response. In short, you have to look at all the good, as well as all the bad, or this thing is doomed from the start.

 

Trapwing Prototype-model pictures-trailerable!

It will be a simple operation to get the boat ready for the road. Just pivot and slide the wing and the boat is ready to go. The picture doesn't show the wing slightly to one side as it will be full size. The keel and/or daggerboard-both equipped with "foil assist" hydrofoils- are trailered retracted. The rail seats are removed-simple plug-in/ pull out and the center sit-in seat can be folded or removed.
click on images:

 

I could easily be missing something, but here goes:

1) The raised daggerboard will interfere big time with the rotated sliding ballast - if appearances are correct, the rotated sliding ballast will have to be off center quite a bit to clear the raised daggerboard. This off-center weight will cause a boat that skinny to want to roll over on the trailer - especially if it weighs 150 pounds - far more than the hull weight from your numbers.

2) Part of the limitation of a trapeze wire is that it has a fixed length from the mast to the attachment point. This limits where the sliding ballast can move, unless you are bending the mast to move the sliding ballast plank further aft. The radius of the arc can't change to compensate for fore-aft movement of the ballast, unless I'm missing some component that adjusts the length of the wire constantly (or bends a flexy mast). In your models, high flexibility of the tubes the batteries moved on compensated for this, but I don't know if this would scale up to the real world.

3) Stability at rest is going to be a serious challenge on a boat this narrow. . Once moving, I can see how the sliding ballast will theoretically work - but standing motionless without large amas is going to be a real issue. Especially if tied up to a dock - the sliding ballast will have to be extended away from the dock to allow the boat to get close enough for embarkation / debarkation. From my experience skiff sailing, you are far more likely to capsize while sitting still than moving fast. Speed equals stability, and stopping or going slow is swimming time.

These items are areas where a little clarification would help - I'm not trying to be negative here.

--
Bill

 

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1) the wing is moved just about 8" to the side-even at 200 pounds there is no tendency for the hull to roll on the trailer.In fact, with 240 pounds on the rail the boat will not roll on the trailer. The daggerboard -with or without ballast) can be raised with the wing in its normal forward most position and then pivoted and slid sideways once the boat is on the trailer.

2) The trapeze wires terminate at a point where a line and a shockcord are attached. The line is adjustable in length. The shock cord stretches
as the weight moves outboard to the limit set by the line. This is done primarily for upwind adjustment to keep the weight low but the shockcord stretches just the same as the wing moves aft. There was no flex in the model tubes-the slack was designed into the system and adjusted for the particular boat. The mast is raked quite a bit and the tensioning due to aft movement of the wing is very little. If the wing is at max extension downwind the end will rise as the wing moves aft but very little. On the models, once this adjustment was sorted, it never needed changing-on this boat we can make the line length adjustable from the cockpit if we decide that there is any benefit-but that is unlikely.

3) We'll have to experiment with handling at a dock. If you launch at a place like many of the places here(which we would never use)-it would likely be possible to scissor the wing until it could be extended just past the end of the dock-but I don't know how that will work. It has the same beam or a little more than a Weta tri so its likely that if the ramp is wide enough it can be launched at a ramp with the wing extended. The buoyancy of the pod +wing is more than sufficient to prevent capsize with nobody in the boat.
In this area and many other areas around the country a production version of the boat will probably be beach launched with a dolly that stays with the boat on the trailer.
Thats part of testing and we will try all kinds of solutions. On the prototype the dolly is attached to the back end of the boat and the boat slid off the trailer.
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If you look closely at the model trapeze wires you can see the "bowsie" adjuster used to set the trapeze wire length after the shock cord stretches. It can be set for no stretch or max stretch. Did a new rough sketch to make it clearer....
Click on images:

 

On-deck movable ballast in AC??! "Trapwing Cup"??

Just the fact that this was even mentioned in an article about the future of the Cup is exciting. Even more so when you consider that both Coutts and Cayard have been in favor of such a system on an ocean racer.( see post #11 ,page 1 of this thread)

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/americas-cup-whats-next-31489-14.html#post362014 post 196

 

Neat stuff, Doug. I always figured this concept had merit, glad to see someone finally trying to make a run with it.

 

1) I guess you've tested this already. From the outside it looks like a high and off-center load of more than double hull weight would be a potential problem. You are writing your response as if this is fait accompli, so I'll take you at your word.

2) The net effect of this is that you have adjustable length trap lines - which can be adjusted easily without any load on them. That's fine. The other side of the coin is that there will be more load on the tubes/plank whatever, as the trapeze will not take any significant load until the lines are fully extended. This makes the carriage strength and all associated mechanisms require greater strength than a system that had fixed length trap lines. I thought the point of the "trapeze" was that it would take significant load and reduce strength requirements of the sliding ballast plank. If you system only takes up full load at full extension, why bother with the complication of the trapeze? Fundamentally, I can't see any benefit of adding a trapeze wire to the sliding seat of an International Canoe, therefore why bother on your boat? Once you ditch the trapeze lines, the whole problem of the wire arc goes away, and you can keep the ballast low all the way across. Sure cuts down on possible uphill travel of the weight while moving.

 

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1) Right.
2)You may have misunderstood how the system works:
a. the line can be adjusted so that it does not permit any stretch of the shock cord or max stretch or anywhere in between.
b. Depending on the "strecthiness"(load bearing) of the shock cord the windward end of the wing will immediately go to the limit of the line when the weight is 6"(or so) to weather of center OR the shock cord can absorb more of the load before the limit is reached. In model testing, we found that the shock cord should support very little load-in other words as soon as the weight moves, say 1.5-2' on the prototype, the wing should pivot to its max setting-with the ballast load more and more taken by the trapeze wire.This keeps the ballast as low as possible upwind and the leeside of The Wing as high as possible above the water. The only exception is in light wind and confused sea state where the best setting is no shock cord stretch because the weight is moving such a small distance-to windward or leeward- that it will, essentially, flop around if not restrained.
Also,this is another example of what testing is all about since the system is 100% adjustable between the model set up and a progressive loading of the shock cord. We'll see what works best on the full size boat even though I'm 98.7% convinced the system that worked best on the model is the system that will prove best on the Prototype.
This system would not work without the trapeze wires at its current projected extention and projected weight.

 

Trapwing Prototype

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Thanks very much, David. Any suggestions, ideas or observations are welcome. A lot more pictures of the model coming soon......

 

Trapwing Proto model,testing,1 ,2

Shows the Proto model on its custom(unfinished) stand in its "self-righting keelboat w/foil assist" configuration. Single seat replaces "plug-in" rail seats. The stand is walnut, purchased unfinished with a piece of .375" steel glued to it to act as a stabilizer. Painted with black enamel(steel only) and clear acrylic. Verticals and beds: carbon tubes and rod I had in stock.
Trying out ideas for pictures....

 

Doug, if I'm reading your design correctly - a couple of suggestions: perhaps you could make the sliding ballast beam a shallow arc of a semi circle, fixed and aero/hydrodynamic, and built with plenty of carbon for strength and shaped similar to the dihedral (but a fixed curve) of a trimaran aka - that way you're not going to trip the leeward beam section in water when heeled (also you can forget the trapeze wiring complication) - the other is why not use water ballast, which can be dumped when unnecessary, instead of lead in batteries (and use a simple, reliable winch to move the ballast instead of electronics) - carrying lead is a no exit street if you want a fast performer (which I presume you're aiming at) - and you already have a ballasted bulb keel. But maybe I;m misinterpreting your intentions.