Decision time --- build or buy

[BillyDoc]

I feel like I'm between that proverbial rock and hard place. The price of used boats has dropped nicely along with our tanking economy and my wife points out rightly that buying one is now cheaper than building one. And you get to sail it so much sooner too!

But here's the problem: not having an overly developed death wish I'm extremely picky about the boat I go to sea in. I love rugged and seaworthy. The boats that Herreshoff designed and their copies make my heart leap with joy! One of my main criteria is that when a hurricane comes to visit I want to be able to go out into the Gulf and do my best to be somewhere else when it hits. And if I can't get far enough away, to ride it out on the end of a serial drogue. As opposed to letting the boat get pounded into scrap against some other hard object near land. One of our last hurricanes (Ivan) twisted up the railroad tracks in front of my house and took out a very sturdy concrete Interstate Highway Bridge a few miles up the bay. I wasn't there at the time, but I bet it was interesting. Lots of hard things sloshing about.

I also want an aluminum boat, a ketch, preferably with a pilot house, roughly 50' in length and with a motion comfort index over 40 and a very high AVS to boot. A deep draft and a cutaway full keel with lots of ballast is very comforting. I also think that 8 mm plating would be just dandy, but I'll settle for 6 if I can't find it. I have worked for years on a design for such a boat (http://poiesisresearch.com/lieserl.php) and could easily reduce it to cut files at this point and get started. And go sailing in 3 to 5 years.

Or, buy one. But I have also been searching and searching for a boat to buy and coming up exactly empty! So my question is, does anyone have any ideas about boats that are available that come close to what I'm looking for? At this point I really think that building is my only real option. Am I wrong?

BillyDoc

[Omeron]

My reccomendation is to go to Sailing Anarchy Forum and contact the gentleman 'tuff luff'. I think he has extensive knowledge on metal boats.

[Crag Cay]

You claim you want a boat with "a very high AVS to boot", but then show some sketches of a boat with two off centre companionways. Which do you you actually want? What is the downflooding angle of your design as shown?

Are you sure the lack of suitable boats on the second hand market is not due to your muddled thinking?

[BillyDoc]

Omeron, thanks, I'll definitely give it a look.

Crag, you're right, should I decide to sail in weather foul enough to roll the boat AND leave both of those (watertight) hatches open bad things would probably happen. On the other hand, I had a fairly bad experience sailing a Contessa 26 once where I got severely pooped in a gale and found about 18 inches of water in the cabin after it was over. That experience may have "muddled my thinking" on the subject, but I prefer to think it taught me a useful and extremely memorable lesson about hatches and storms. The design on my web site has an AVS of 180 degrees with the hatches closed -- which is how they certainly would be in such extreme conditions -- and that seems good enough to me.

I may have found the boat I'm looking for in any case. I have to make a fairly long trip to check it out in person though, and I'm planning it now. We'll see.

[Tad]

Originally Posted by BillyDoc

The design on my web site has an AVS of 180 degrees with the hatches closed -- which is how they certainly would be in such extreme conditions -- and that seems good enough to me.

I would stress that your design has a theoretical AVS of 180 degrees.

Where did you set the vcg and displacement in your stability runs? Are they realistic, and can the boat actually be built at that vcg and displacement?

Until the boat is built, and an inclining experiment performed on her, (in ready for sea condition) it's all theoretical. Then you need to realize that displacement and vcg will change as you use up consumables at sea. Your theoretical AVS may become meaningless as loading changes.

[Tanton]

You might want to checK at the Gallery, Tanton Yachts. Page 20. There is a boat designed for a Frenchman that has some characteristics of what you are looking for.

[BillyDoc]

Hi Tad,

You are absolutely correct, it's all theoretical until proven. However, the vcg is a calculated value derived by adding up all the bits and pieces using Rhino Marine's "Model Management" program, and the AVG is also calculated using Rhino Marine's Hydrostatics program and calculating a series of righting moments every 20 degrees at a variety of loadings and resulting displacements.

Here is the righting moment data for an intermediate displacement:

Heel Trim Delta VCG Origin Depth Righting Arm Righting Mom
0.000° 0.000° 0.000 7.400 0.000 0.000
20.000° 0.475° 0.314 6.592 1.073 31,161.688
40.000° 1.519° 1.214 4.383 1.974 57,337.488
60.000° 2.266° 2.236 1.661 2.479 72,021.115
80.000° 1.909° 3.025 -0.755 3.615 105,017.567
100.000° 1.915° 4.232 -3.833 3.548 103,079.678
120.000° 1.653° 5.519 -6.782 2.918 84,782.338
140.000° 1.088° 6.574 -9.067 2.021 58,724.438
160.000° 0.356° 7.225 -10.392 0.968 28,113.775
180.000° -0.252° 7.342 -10.616 0.000 -0.462

(sorry about the spacing, I can't seem to get tabs to work here . . .)

OK, so it's slightly negative at exactly 180 degrees. This design has a very deep Sheel-type keel into which a LOT of lead can be poured, and is generally rounded on deck (looking from fore or aft) to avoid large flat areas that would increase inverted stability. My theory is that if you take a common nail and glue the head to a ping-pong ball then the AVS on that "vessel" is quite likely to be exactly 180 degrees no matter the exact weight of the nail (keel). This is the driving theoretical principle I used for the design.

Oh, and there is nothing in the design that I can't build, with the possible exception of forming the compound curves in 3/8" 5083 (the hull plating). My plan is to determine whether this can in fact be done by first building a whopping rugged English Wheel and trying it before proceeding with cut files, etc. I did some preliminary experiments for this wheel, and it looks like a wheel pressure of 9000 pounds will work nicely. I have a 7.5 horsepower motor here to put on a hydraulic pump and power the fore and aft movement of the "big" wheel, which I think should provide sufficient force. We may see . . . but I admit I'm more than a little excited about the boat I found. I can't wait to actually see it! Then it should only take about a year to get it like I want it.

[BillyDoc]

Hi Tanton,

Nice pictures. Can you give me some details?

BillyDoc

[Tanton]

Thank you. The Design has been completed. But then we found a used boat and he ended up doing the reasonable thing.
I can send you particulars if you address an e-mail to me at: ymt@tantonyachts.com

[lazeyjack]

buy me boy