Cockpit Design--why get wet?

[Finlander]

Coming from a pilothouse motorsailing perspective, one thing I'll never understand about pure sailboats is why they leave the helmsman exposed to all elements. So, how about the following design for a standard aft cockpit sailboat?

A sleek hard-dodger that extends over the cockpit seats by at least 1-meter. Sides are covered, but the dodger's roof is cut-out to match a centered companionway hatch, so headroom isn't compromised when entering or exiting the companionway. Perhaps a sliding plexiglass hatch could be used there--aligned with the companionway's sliding hatch.

The helmsman can sit with his shoulder against the cabin bulkhead, near the companionway hatch and underneath the hard-dodger's roof.

Steering would be an almost standard arrangement: A tiller arcs upward from the cockpit floor and ends less than two-feet from the companionway hatch. That way it's always within easy reach of the helmsman. Also, since it arcs upward from the floor, crew members can easily step over & around it from behind.

The reason for using a tiller, instead of wheel, is to save space and allow steering from a forward position. For optimal placement within the cockpit, the tiller might not match perfectly with the rudder's axle; in that case, I propose that a mechanical connection (with gearing for optimal leverage) should be considered.

Naturally, the tiller should have a locking feature or be attached to an autopilot.

Wouldn't this be much better than sitting at the back-end of an exposed cockpit, getting rained-upon and taking waves at full-force?

[tmark]

Originally Posted by Finlander

Wouldn't this be much better than sitting at the back-end of an exposed cockpit, getting rained-upon and taking waves at full-force?

Yup and nope ... it's nice not to get rained on, but it's also nice to see the sails which would be difficult under a dodger, inspite of having a 'sunroof' ... having a tiller bisect the cockpit could interfere with crew movement, and play havoc on boats with mid-pit travellers ... it certainly has legitmacy for long-range sailing with little crew movement and long reaches but otherwise .... it doesn't apply to day sailors and club racers which represent, at least in our part of the world, the majority of sailors ... besides how are we to achieve that early onset skin-cancer?

[Finlander]

Thanks for your thoughts and, heh, point taken about the skin cancer

We have lots of racers here too. I wouldn't suggest that this is suited for them. But for long-distance it would provide a warm and dry watch position, especially if some canvas were spread across the back.

Also, for day-long, rainy navigations through busy straights and such, it would be possible to steer while under cover. Plus, all instruments would be mounted on the cabin-top or under the dodger roof, within reach.

I once had a San Juan 26 with tiller that bisected the cockpit horizontally from top-of-transom. It was very inconvenient. But, since then, I've sailed on some boats where the tiller starts from the cockpit floor and arcs upward. What a huge difference space-wise, since one can actually stand-over the tiller. If it's not too long, then it provides much more space savings than a wheel.

For my proposed design, the tiller would probably be mounted somewhere near middle of the cockpit. That would leave the area behind and overtop of the tiller free for movement. In addition, the tiller could be tilted upward a bit, so one could stand within---and even lean against---the dodger's companionway cutout and see overtop the roof. The cutout should be wide enought to allow another crew member to pass by the helmsman.

But again, it's not for racers...unless maybe they're racing long passages. Otherwise, it's for practical, cruising-oriented sailors who don't like getting wet or having skin cancer .

[Eric Sponberg]

Finlander,

My Globetrotter 45 design has an extended pilothouse as you suggest--the sides and top extend over the front of the cockpit so that you can sit in the shelter of the pilothouse shell. The entire cockpit can be enclosed with a dodger, bimini top and side and back curtains. I incorporated wheel steering in the design, along with an autopilot (can also have windvane steering) so that you don't have to sit at the wheel to steer. Such devices are very reliable. I post some pictures, some of which have appeared before on this Forum. For a complete description of the design, you can see it on my website at: http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Globetrotter45.htm.

Eric

[Tanton Yachts]

For rain or shine, a covered and protected cockpit is important. It adds enormously to the comfort. And is advantageous in lengthening the sailing season. A solid dodger, and in this case (TYD#965) a vertical mounted tiller right behind the companionway was the answer in this relatively simple boat designed for a couple with extended cruising experience. The boat is spending most of the time in the Pacific. Where it becomes very important to be fully protected from the sun.

[Finlander]

Originally Posted by Tanton Yachts

A solid dodger, and in this case (TYD#965) a vertical mounted tiller right behind the companionway was the answer in this relatively simple boat designed for a couple with extended cruising experience.

Wow! A vertically mounted tiller. Do tell!

It obviously has some type of mechanical linkage with the rudder. Cables and pulleys? Hydraulics?

Do you have standard longitudinal cockpit seats, with vertical tiller between them? And please describe the mounting. By vertical, I understand it functions like a big joy-stick or upsidedown pendulum---push it right, the boat goes left and visa versa. Same steering action as a regular tiller. Is that right?

In any case, I'm looking at alternatives to a regular steering wheel. It takes too much space and can't easily be mounted forward---like against the cabin bulkhead---without changing the whole interior layout. That is, the whole passthrough gets lost.

Plus, I always tended to rely on an autopilot. A windvane is planned for the next boat. I still want to be able to steer under-cover, against the cabin when in high-traffic zones though. Does your design have a locking feature, so it's not necessary to always hold it---for example, for a quick trip to the back of the cockpit?

Also, why did you opt to leave the dodger's sides open (ala Amel Maramu)? Doesn't it detract from dryness?

I know. It's for aerodynamics on a reach. I'm exploring the idea of using removable Plexiglas panels for the same reason---take them out for performance; put them back in for shielding comfort.

Thanks for posting!

Kristian

[Mychael]

I am primarily a day/overnight sailor, plus Australia is not noted for it's severe frosts, snow , ice etc. So an open cockpit works for me.
The biggest thing (for me) though is I enjoy being out in the elements, seeing stars on a night sail, feeling the wind etc .etc. It's the same reason I drive my 1958 sportscar all year round with only aeroscreens fitted.

Mychael

[ChrisF]

For getting the helmsman forward under the dodger, nothing could be simpler: just steer with the pushbuttons on the autopilot's remote. Better yet, just let the autopilot steer. Why get wet, and why do all that work pulling on a tiller? Better yet again, stay ashore, warm and dry and within reach of all mod cons, and sail the boat by remote control. Why get wet, and why be the least bit uncomfortable? Oh, but wait a moment...what do we have this boat for, again?

[Finlander]

Originally Posted by ChrisF

For getting the helmsman forward under the dodger, nothing could be simpler: just steer with the pushbuttons on the autopilot's remote.

True. I've always used an autopilot. But, with a normal cockpit design, one must jump around/behind the wheel each time there's a little steering emergency. In my humble opinion, a wheel takes-up way too much space considering the small amount of time it's used. Otherwise, an autopilot/windvane is fine, in principle.

Originally Posted by ChrisF

Better yet again, stay ashore, warm and dry and within reach of all mod cons, and sail the boat by remote control. Why get wet, and why be the least bit uncomfortable? Oh, but wait a moment...what do we have this boat for, again?

From the perspective of someone who sits in an office all week, I can relate to the need for 'getting outside and braving the elements.' But, I spent my college years---about 10-years--- working for a home builder. Much of my time was spent outdoors, under the hot sun. Then there was the beach house... And I've always enjoyed long (recumbent) bicycle tours under the hot sun.

It was all nice, but, truthfully, I've had enough sun-exposure to last a lifetime. Anything further is just plain risky.

I'd like to undertake longer passages. Aside from concerns about the sun, there's nothing worse than getting wet from cold rain and then dealing with near-pneumonia until next landfall. I've been there before. Luckily, I was crewing for someone else and could go down-below and rest. But, when sailing passages shorthanded, I see no advantage in undertaking additional risk.

I don't need things like AC or even automatic flushing toilets. But, if I can get all my steering and sail-handling under a little roof, I'll be a happy sailor

[mattotoole]

After spending the last 7 summers on a center cockpit boat with a canvas cockpit cover, I'm convinced it's the only way to do things (at least for a boat that size, 50'). The big bonus is that the cockpit becomes another interior "room", with a view, like a solarium or a screen porch. With a full cockpit cover there's no reason to waste interior space on a second, inside steering station. Hard dodgers are great but most are really ugly.

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by ChrisF

For getting the helmsman forward under the dodger, nothing could be simpler: just steer with the pushbuttons on the autopilot's remote. Better yet, just let the autopilot steer.

Why not put the wheel on the bulkhead? It works great for us. If only designers weren't so bound by tradition, and symmetry fetishes...

[safewalrus]

As can be seen most of the 'sailors' in the world get their rocks off by being out in the storm as it were! They'll never agree to anything BUT an open cockpit so why bother!!

For the rest of us who like a little comfort with our sailing or who live onboard and find the extra 'room' useful, why not! and for backup look ar all the late 19th Century early 20th Century sail trading vessels and quite a few of them have wheelhouses or 'glass oilskins', but I'm not sure about the tiller in the middle of the floor idea?

[Finlander]

Originally Posted by mattotoole

After spending the last 7 summers on a center cockpit boat with a canvas cockpit cover, I'm convinced it's the only way to do things (at least for a boat that size, 50'). The big bonus is that the cockpit becomes another interior "room", with a view, like a solarium or a screen porch. With a full cockpit cover there's no reason to waste interior space on a second, inside steering station. Hard dodgers are great but most are really ugly.

I like the interior room effect too. But, I wouldn't trust a big canvas enclosure in a big storm---a single wave would send it over the side and perhaps injure you in the process. Of course, you could dismantle the whole thing if weather gets really bad, but then you've got no shelter. They're fine for coastal/bay sailing though.

I like the idea of hard-dodger front-half with canvas back-half. IMO, the Amel Maramu has a great looking dodger. It also has bulkhead steering.

My last boat had bulkhead steering. It's a great way to go. Only problem is, that, if you have a <40-footer and you want a raised cockpit floor, then a full-height (stand-under) dodger might be too high for your tastes. So, then, a sleeker (sit-under) dodger might be better, but bulkhead steering becomes more difficult to justify because you can't stand-up---it might work as a secondary steering position though.

That's why I proposed the design in my original post about having a dodger with cut-out to match a (centered) companionway. One could stand in that space and look over the dodger's roof. It would also work with a (centered ) pedestal wheel I suppose, but a tiller would probably be better in keeping the hatch area from feeling restricted.

BTW, a nice advantage to that design is that the companionway can be centered. It's probably safest that way, especially on a smaller boat.

I agree with your comment about how the industry is fixated on 'standard' solutions. It must be influenced by the racing segment....or maybe it's just what people expect, so builders acquiesce. In any case, I read and hear lots of comments about how people want alternatives.

[Finlander]

Originally Posted by safewalrus

As can be seen most of the 'sailors' in the world get their rocks off by being out in the storm as it were! They'll never agree to anything BUT an open cockpit so why bother!!

Walrus, I hope you're wrong

Originally Posted by safewalrus

...ook ar all the late 19th Century early 20th Century sail trading vessels and quite a few of them have wheelhouses or 'glass oilskins'...

I know, we've got a whole harbor full of restoreds and replicas. There's a whole pier dedicated to them. We even have homeless drunks sleeping on the docks, next to the boats---wearing black pelt-coats no less

It's like stepping into the 1700's and 1800's. Beautiful!

Originally Posted by safewalrus

..but I'm not sure about the tiller in the middle of the floor idea?

Me neither. Here's an alternative you've probably already seen. It's a smaller boat than I envision, but it has a completely uncluttered cockpit---which I really like. Just hook-up the self-steering gear and hide under a dodger.

http://www.vander-bend.com/norsea/57494_11.jpg
http://www.vander-bend.com/norsea/

I'd probably still want to steer from underneath the dodger though---and it should be a better-covering dodger than that shown. A push-button remote (autopilot) is ok for steering, but it diverts from the KISS principle a bit. Also, it's not great in stormy weather, when adverse conditions could cause a gybe or broach. Direct corrective action via manual steering would be better. Maybe some type of linkage with ropes and pulleys would work.....

[ChrisF]

Well, obviously (I hope), I was just getting the needle in a little bit, for fun. And maybe reacting to that "other" comfort thread a bit. My singlehanded and shorthanded passagemaking has mostly been done with an autopilot, and very grateful I was, too, as I sheltered under my (canvas) dodger. And I too am plenty old enough to be concerned about sun exposure and to think more of my creature comforts than I did, say, forty years ago.

But I do think it's worthwhile to consider a continuum, on one end of which is sailing say a Laser or Hobie (leaving foilers and maxi cats aside only because I've never sailed one), and the other end is staying ashore. To me, the Laser end isn't about "braving" anything, or being hairy-chested in any way, it's about the exhilaration of sailing fast, the pleasure of using your body well, and the many satisfactions of being out in nature, where we originally evolved to be, after all. I do think the discomforts are the reverse of these delights, and you're fooling yourself if you think you can diminish the one without diminishing the other. Which is all right, only you want to be aware of where along that continuum you want to be.