cheap and simple rig

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by sailor305, May 23, 2012.

  1. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    no, 65-68% of the laminate weight is glass, the remainder is resin. you also need to consider the resin is lighter than glass by volume also.

    So you also beleive infused panels are not as watertight now? please tell us more about this theory as i find it hard to beleive a perfectly transparent infused laminate is less watertight than a translucent hand layed laminate!?

    True, its not as cheap to infuse thin laminates, but it IS cheaper to infuse thicker laminates and i explained the break even point based on the prices i currently pay today, your milage may vary depending on your local prices, particularly resin and infusion consumables - which are not always sourced from composites suppliers btw...

    How do you think Rob Denny`s proa designs are able to be built so lightly for so little money despite all the carbon and resin infusion "hi tech" stuff going on? its the combination of construction method/process, materials, and predominately developable panel shapes, a modern and clever approach...
     
  2. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    You misunderstood. I didn't mean that infused panels were not watertight

    What I meant was that very high glass content, thin skinned panels were not as watertight as more resin rich or thicker panels

    Richard Woods
     
  3. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    very high glass content and very low void content... So which is more porous, infused or handlayed?

    I just think some of your opinions on infusion are rather antiquated... is cheaper and easier these days compared to 10 years ago... theres heaps more info out there, better products these days and the relative prices have come down. it wouldnt surprise me one bit if 10 years from now, most home builders were infusing their own carbon masts... its not as high tech and "out of reach" to home builders as people make out...
     
  4. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Re As I said to Chris: Actually pretty easy if you have enough blocks or winches. Then after the gust, you do it all in reverse. Fun around the cans, pretty tedious on a long trip, so most leave it depowered and go back to reading their book. The unstayed rig drops power in the puffs, picks it back up in the lulls with no strings pulled. Which is easier?

    I wasn't talking about playing backstay etc gust-by-gust - you can let the fractional rig bend automatically for that, as you know. I was talking about the fact that you can tweak the rig to handle bigger wind strength changes. A short overlap rig can handle from 0 to 20 knots without reefing or sail changing quite easily, and that's one that's generously sized to begin with.

    BTW I agree that there are cruising sailors out there who are champion sailors and can trim gear very well. They seem to be happy with stays.


    Re Eric's post, where he says "free-standing rigs are indeed safer to sail particularly downwind because, as Rob described, the boom is let forward of the beam so that the mainsail is naturally stable downwind--the leach is downwind from the oncoming wind. In a stayed rig, the boom cannot go further forward than the aft lower shroud, and this necessarily presents the leach of the sail head on to the oncoming wind. It is very easy for the oncoming wind to catch the leach of the sail and gybe it to the other side. So what happens then--the boom swings wildly over to the other side and can crash against the opposing lower shroud. When the boom snubs up hard, either against the shroud or a short mainsheet, the boat naturally turns hard to the opposite direction, toward the wind, and the skipper must deftly and quickly counteract with lots of opposing rudder to counteract and keep the boat on course. It is a quick-happening event with a high potential for a broach, particularly in heavy air and high seas. If you broach in high seas, you run a real risk of roll-over--every cruising sailor's most dreaded event!'

    Eric, please identify how many gybe broaches, as described here, that have rolled cruising boats.

    On the gybing issue generally; I can only recall one accidental gybe in my last 2.3 seasons of offshore sailing (including a Sydney-Hobart) and that was when I was gybing a spinnaker singlehanded offshore with no autopilot. I think the last big crash gybe I was in was around 1979, apart from when we lost a rudder in heavy air under kite. So are uncontrolled gybes really such an issue?

    I'm also unsure why an unstayed mainsail is not going to come up hard against the mainsheet on the new gybe in a crash gybe, since that is exactly what happens when one is gybing an unstayed Laser mainsail, for example - you do come up hard against the mainsheet on the new gybe, subject to course changes. Course changes are relevant, of course, but with a swept rig it's easy to steer into the gybe as you feel it happening, which means that by the time the sail reaches its limit (stays or sheet) on the new gybe there is no pressure in it as it is luffing - it's a standard way of gybing when cruising in my experience.

    Of course, any uncontrolled gybe can kill someone standing in the way of the boom or mainsheet, so they are definitely things to be avoided. Personally from Laser experience, I would much rather go downwind slightly oversheeted than slightly undersheeted if control is a major issue, because of the steering effect of the assymetry of a heeled hull. If oversheeted, the natural tendency is to head up so that the sail luffs, which is a better safety valve than undersheeting which turns the boat further to the lee and further into a gybe.

    However, Eric's attitude that sailors are "insanely conservative" and cheapskates could be one reason his designs are not more popular . I've seen that linked article before. There are many bones I could pick with it. For one thing, if rating rules were the reason that freestanding/wing rigs are not more popular then why are they not universal on Open 60s, Moths, IRC boats, 18 Foot Skiffs, R Class, Merlins and the many other boats that do not have such restrictions? Having spent years sailing wing rigs, the answer seems to be that they don't offer such a big performance improvement and in many classes for many factors, there is none at all.

    Anyone who is trying to say that wing rigs are only held back by conservatism will have to explain how these "conservatives" will do things like leave their day jobs, sell their house and go live on the high seas; or develop hydrofoil dinghies; or create carbon Skiffs that are 18' wide and have 30' wings and 45' masts; or create the biggest pre-preg carbon structures in the world, or the world's largest poly mouldings.

    Sorry, apart from being insulting, it's just illogical.

    To test the idea that people are too conservative to go for unstayed masts, let's look at the three most popular sailboats in the world. Hmmm, there's the Laser; rotating bermudan rig, unstayed. Gee, there's the Sunfish; unstayed lateen rig; and the Opti, unstayed sprit rig. Yep, lots of evidence that people won't buy unconventional freestanding rigs there!

    The concept that stayed rigs cannot have gust response is simply bizarre. It's funny to find that the world's sailors have been doing the wrong thing since (at least) Pym Von Hutschler showed the flex rig to the Stars about 1937......Gee, all those days I've worked on gust response through in Flying 15s, J/24s, half tonners, Etchells and I never realised that not just I, but just about every other sailor of a fractional rig was fooling ourselves with our rams, chocks, tension gauges, photos, America's Cup sailmakers and all the rest of it....

    The overall tone of the piece really turns me off. So we are back to the point where I came in this thread....the intelligence and knowledge of others has been bagged out by those who place themselves on a higher plane. There appears to be no allowance for different preferences, conditions, sailing styles or skills, or budgets - there is just one right way and one wrong way, taken by insane cheapskates.

    If I have annoyed anyone by this post, let them remember that in was in response to a link that said that sailors were "insanely conservative" and cheap - those who have written that sort of stuff cannot complain.
     
  5. Eric Sponberg
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    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    CT, of course I cannot give you a number for broaches caused by gybes, and you can't either. It's an unreasonable question that cannot be answered because we don't have a divine view of all boats and all situations. What I do relate, as you well know, is that broaching under gybe is very possible, it can be very dangerous in heavy seas or confined waters (such as a harbor entrance or in a fleet of other boats close by) and everyone fears the result. I've gybed plenty of times where I have thought I'd lose control of the boat, and you know as well as anyone else that it is not fun. Manageable, of course, fun no. Easier to handle on a small boat like a Laser, not as much so on a larger 40'er. With a free-standing rig, you just don't get there as often since it is so easy to set the mast forward of the beam with the leach setting downwind from the mast.

    You also know as well as I that not all boat designs and classes always go to the most efficient set of equipment. There are many reasons why boats end up the way they do, and that's part of my point--politics as much as aerodynamics and good science play a role. As I said, the stayed rig is not going to go away. It works very well, it is lightweight, and on smaller boats it is really cheap. As boats get bigger, cruising sailboats we are talking about, the free-standing rig starts to come into its own. At LOA = 40' and above, a free-standing rig can be cheaper than a stayed rig, all costs considered re: the mast and the rigging.

    Finally, I don't place myself on a higher plane--I am the same as everyone else, you included: I have experiences and knowledge, and I report what I know for the benefit of others. I grant everyone their differences in sailing preferences, styles, skills, or budgets, and never once did I ever say that free-standing rigs were the right way and that all other rigs were the wrong way. That view is only your narrow perception.

    Eric
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready


    ===================
    As usual in years of attempted dialog with you, here you go again misquoting someone out of context following up with an attempted personal insult!
    Eric is one of the most respected NA's in the world today and an expert on unstayed masts . Whats your field of expertise? Nevermind-it's obvious.....
     
  7. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Your arguments might carry more weight if you didn't deliberately engage in misquoting.

    IIRC the comment was that *cruising* sailors were insanely conservative etc. That is very different.

    PDW
     
  8. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    PDWiley, I did NOT misquote Eric.

    Please see Eric's post below, and in particular the line "Finally, I would like to reinforce the fact that cruising sailors are, as I have said before, "insanely conservative." in par 7.

    See also "I am often asked, "Well, if free-standing rigs are so great, then why don't we see more of them? The answer is, as above, sailors are insanely conservative." You will find it in par 8. I would highlight it, but then you may accuse me of modifying Eric's post.

    Also note that in the linked article "The State of the Art", Eric wrote "Well, sailors and designers are insanely conservative people." See it http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/StateoftheArt.htm. It's below the Marchaj quote.

    In no case could I be said to have been deliberately misquoting him, nor even misquoting him at all. I used a direct quote from Eric, as can be seen in the attached post. Please do not accuse me of being "deliberately misleading" because you didn't read the post to which I was replying to check whether that was so, as is clear from your note "IIRC".

    The original point remains. People who do things like sell up their house, give up their job, take their kids out of school or home school them, and move onto a cruising boat could hardly be called "insanely conservative" by any normal stretch of the word.

    If selling up to go cruise the world is "insanely conservative" then exactly what does one have to do to be daring, or even middle of the road? Paint yourself pink, swim the Atlantic tethered to a subterranean Zeppelin and then wear a merkin as a ball gown and crash the Royal Jubilee command performance to perform a post-steam-neo-mashup-folk/punk rendition of the Brandenburg Concerto on a camel and a bolivian nose trombone??

    Surely, rather than being "insanely conservative", people who go long-distance cruising are actually generally reasonably open-minded.

    I would also say that since many boats cost a couple of hundred grand+, owning one is a rather expensive hobby and therefore it is rather odd to say of sailors (cruising or not) that "they are also very cheap,"

    Against what standard are people who spend that sort of money on their pastime "very cheap"?????


     
  9. Silver Raven
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    Silver Raven Senior Member

    Gooday 'pd' - I've been in this section of the 'forums' discussion since - the very beginning & with great respect for you - that I've learned from your 'posts' in all these 'forums' I would like to bring to your attention that the first line of your assunption is - - deeply - - very deeply flawed - IMHO

    The very best - adopted attitude or the vexing engagement of - the said poster & others - is to stop answering their non-productive diatribe - in any way shape or form - - just pass-over - to the next valid - constructive post - as the 'totally negative poster' may eventually - just pack-up & go away. We should all be so fortunate - I wish ! ! !

    There are 5 - negative posters - who have contributed absolutely nothing to the subject - what so ever - they never will - as they are not capable or able to do so. Those posters have - consumed over 1/3 of all the written words - posts - lines - & have not said one - NO not one single helpful comment for 'sailor305' to follow - that will lead him to make a more informed decission. Shame that. Best we all just - pass over - the negative & get on with the positive of trying our very best to assist our fellow sailor 'sailor305' which I'm sure he'll appreciate in the long run. Ciao, james
     
  10. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Eric, it's great that you appreciate the advantages (and disadvantages) of the various rig types. However, there does seem to be a bit of a different between saying on the one hand that everyone has the right to their preferences in rigs and budgets, and on the other hand saying that people are "insanely conservative" and that "we blindly accept (stayed rigs) without question".

    It's great that you accept that a stayed rig has some advantages (which is all I said - I never said that other rigs were bad, or inferior). However, that is not the impression given in the linked article, where you say things like "the only reason we have wires in the rigs is because we are afflicted in modern sailboat design with arbitrary sailboat design rating rules that, for no good aerodynamic reasons, require the wires in the rigs".

    Re the comments in your article linking rules requiring stays to measurement systems; in things like the sailplan measurement diagram and attached rules contained in the NAYRU 1937 yearbook, or the International Rule and indeed the IOR, I can find no measurements of wires.

    Re wingmast and "the adrenaline rush of acceleration and speed caused by pure lift from a properly designed and rotated wingmast rig." In the most popular wing-masted mono in the world (Tasar) the advantage of the wingmast downwind is pretty slender; maybe as much as the difference between moving the jib lead out downwind, and keeping it in, at a guess. We have about 70 of them in this city so there's plenty of chances to notice this. It seems to apply in classes like Taipans with their large "superwing" section in a similar fashion.

    I also note again that many classes have no rules against wingmasts or unstayed rigs and yet such rigs remain uncommon. Given that these classes have created things such as canting keels, foils, racks, water ballast, assys, singlehanded around the world racing etc, it seems unlikely that they are blinded by conservatism.

    Sorry if I have appeared rather strident, but the comments you made about other sailors are not exactly subtle either.
     
  11. Eric Sponberg
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    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    CT, I never said that the wires in rigs had to measured. I only said they had to be included. As examples, from the IOR and from the MHS (precursor to the IMS):

    IOR Rule 802.6A: "To qualify for measurement under the rule, a yacht must be fitted with a bona-fide forestay."

    MHS Rule 07.01.05: "All yachts, including those not having masthead rig, shall be equipped wiht a permanent backstay extending to the mast head...."

    I am not alone in my opinions regarding the constraints posed by wires in rigs. To quote from my article, which in turn quotes from C.A. Marchaj:

    The rating rules for racing say the wires have to be there, so designers put them in. If you don’t have wires, you cannot race. If that is how the racing fleet goes, so goes the rest of the boating market—cruising boats as well as racing boats. It is a very artificial feature of sailboat design that has absolutely nothing to do with aerodynamics. C.A. Marchaj, again in his book Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing, bemoans this state of affairs:

    Certainly the rating rules have in this respect a more profound effect on the shape of sails than the aerodynamic requirements or wind in all its moods. The penalty incurred for example by the sail measurement system on the width of the headboard of the mainsail or length of its top batten is so high that it virtually precludes any attempt to improve the aerodynamic effectiveness of the modern tall rig. Those curious prohibitions, which after years of enforcement became part of sailing tradition, effectively discouraged ocean racing people from making experiments with unorthodox rigs which could have led to the development of less tall but more efficient rigs. So triangular rigs prevail.

    You are right that lots of progress has been made in other features such as canting keels and water ballast. So why are we as an industry so dead set against, or at least very slow in adopting, improvements in rigs--the very thing that gives a sailboat power to move?

    A lot of the reason has to be politics as well as that sailing conservatism. But as I said, we are breaking down the barriers of mind and business inertia gradually. As the technology improves and free-standing masts become more readily available at reasonable prices, I think we are seeing a resurging interest in free-standing rigs. I know I am from this very forum and from my business in general.

    Eric
     
  12. sailor305
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    sailor305 future cat builder

    Firstly, I'd like to thank you all for your contribution to this thread, although I'm getting the impression that disputes are coming up.
    Secondly, I'd like to thank Eric as a specialist for freestanding rigs a lot. I'm thinking too that the ongoing use of the close to 40 years old Bermuda rig is wanted and a type of politics. Its expensive to install and to maintain, beside high weight and top loads.
    Thirdly, I'd like to update my requirements
    A. free standing,
    B. two mast to reduce mast strength requirements and sail handling,
    C. twin or schooner?
    D. wrapped wing sails (no mast track and batt cars needed)

    I hope the ongoing discussion will be focused on these more in depth.
    Thanks again
     
  13. DStaal
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    DStaal Junior Member

    Sailor, I think the requirements people are looking for here are more about the boat than the sails. Tell us about the boat, and we (well, they) can tell you what sails would work well.
     
  14. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I would like to see the metrics on that.
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==============
    You might start by comparing his "rep" numbers with yours.
     
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