CBTF(Canting Ballast Twin Foil)

249, what absurd drivel.....

[usa2]

Lorsail-
Even you know that typical sailing does not involve having the engine running. I support the use of canting keels, but there is no denying the fact that the boats would be hopelessly slow if they were not allowed to use stored energy. CT 249 makes a good point in wondering why should just the canting keel boats be allowed to use stored power that indirectly or directly contributes to the speed of the boat?

[yokebutt]

Would it make sense to use a central gen-set in a canting ballast boat? Then you could run the keel, winches, auxiliary propulsion, cooking, entertainment systems and all the weird sex-toys the rich & famous people use off of one source. Anyone looked into it yet?

Yokebutt.

[CT 249]

Doug, the use of stored energy in CBTF requires the boat to be exempt from one of the fundamental rules of sailing.

Why are CBTF boats the only ones in a race among IRC/PHRF type boats to be allowed such an exemption? Why is it absurd to query this special treatment?

IF CBTF boats deserve an exemption - and it IS arguable that they can get one - then why can't other yachts also get an exemption from another basic rule?

Or is it just one (less) rule for CBTF, another rule for the other sailors?

Why not try logic instead of insults?

249, my comments were definitely not insulting-just factual. You were trolling(I guess) because you know better about CBTF which is legal under almost every rating system(I think-at least IRC and PHRF) and CBTF boats race everywhere legaly.
You're wanting to hijack a CBTF specific thread for a non CBTF specific topic.Why don't you start another topic on "stored energy" if you want to decry the almost universal acceptance of canting keels and their movement by stored energy UNDER THE RULES. While you're at it you could decry the power used to run and the robotic implications of the use of autopilots in the Vendee ; electrc winches on many big boats and other Non -CBTF specific issues close to your heart.

[usa2]

notice how the transatlantic race-in order to set the record-you are not allowed to use powered winches.

[yokebutt]

Are Flettner-rotors allowed yet?

Yokebutt.

[yokebutt]

Come on then jerk-offs, I'm dying to make mince-meat out of you.

Yokebuttocks.

[usa2]

they dont work in under 14 knots of wind

[brian eiland]

...courtesy of Scuttlebutt...

* From Bruce Thompson:
Rory Lewis should note that the problem with keels falling off is due to the frequency of the input from the waves being quite different than the natural frequencies of the hull and keel. The hull is closer in natural frequency to the waves than the keel is. The natural frequency of the keel is quite low, just as the pendulum of a grandfather clock is quite low. So as the wave tries to roll the hull, the keel lags. As the wave passes and the hull tries to change the direction of roll, the keel still lags and wants to keep rolling in the original direction. This reversing, opposing rolling motion imposes a cyclical bending moment on the hull to keel attachment. And just as you will break a paper clip by bending it repeatedly in opposite directions, the hull to keel attachment will fail from fatigue.

The problem is worst when the boat is sailing upwind in modest size waves as they are big enough to cause a significant bending moment due to roll, but of a short enough wavelength to have a high frequency. The whole problem gets even crazier when you cant the keel or add impact loads from falling off a wave! Note that the original impetus for such keels was from Vendee Globe racers sailing in huge, low frequency Southern Ocean swells, with more of a pitching motion than a rolling motion, and where the problem was therefore small but the egos were huge.

[gggGuest]

Now Doug, it is a valid point. Why should there be an exception for keels and not for powered winches - and for that matter generator driven autopilots look a bit sketchy to me too. If you've got a boat with lead in it makes sense to shift it from side to side. But using an engine doesn't seem right to me if everything else has to be muscle driven.

A major limit on the performance of my dinghy, now I'm statistically nearer the grave than the cradle, is how many times I can pull that damn kite up and down the mast and heave my fat **** from out on the wire one side to out on the wire the other during the course of a race. But I don't think I should be allowed a powered system to help me. After all if I want to go fast with petrol I can buy a jetski.

As for veering off topic, this is the internet for goodness sake. electronic pub cnversation. That's what happens!

Frankly, gg I don't think it is a valid point-either one-but maybe a moot point.1)-CBTF boats don't violate any rules or they would not be racing all over the globe.Same for all canting keel boats.
2) Stored energy is recognized as legal for use by just about every major ocean racing authority since ,for one thing, it would be rather difficult to move a keel on any boat from 40 to 140 feet w/o the use of a diesel or a battery.
The discussion is over at any rate because those that are in authority in racing have accepted the concept almost 100%. I personally would not want a diesel running all the time on my boat but of course they don't run all the time anyway-just when they're tacking a Z86 or bigger.
The concept of changing the rules to prohibit these boats is ,to me, out of the realm of reality since they have added a spectacular new dimension to monohull sailing-cruising and racing- and on top of that it will never happen: too many people enjoy the breathtaking speed and agility of these boats.

[usa2]

do you know if this years transat is letting powered winches be used?

[CT 249]

Doug, even from you it is bizarre that you can say that calling something "absurd drivel" is not an insult.

Actually, CT , I think that is an accurate description of your post#150 where you say as a matter of "fact" that CBTF boats violate the rules. You KNOW better and while you may not agree with the way the rules are used or enforced the fact remains that CBTF boats are legal all across the world and have raced in almost every major ocean race including the Sydney-Hobart and the upcoming Transpac.
To directly attack/criticize a major development in the speed of monohulls in such an unfair, untrue and off the wall manner is deserving of the appellation in the title of this post.
There are many ways to approach this subject but you chose the one that would be the most offensive to anyone who believes not only in CBTF but in the use of canting keels on racing monohulls.The language you used and the point you made were so far from what the facts are that one wonders exactly why you chose to do it in that way.