Canting Keels In Production Yachts

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by D'ARTOIS, Jan 15, 2005.

  1. Gina22
    Joined: Jun 2004
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    Gina22 Junior Member

    Hi, not my Information, Mighetto has wrote, in another Canting Keel Topic 180 K$

    Gina22 :)
     
  2. I am a good arm chair designer. Why not make the keel fully controllable? Canting, left-right... slide, fore- aft...pivot , port- starboard... depth, up-down-retract. All from the helm JOYSTICK. This would allow a REAL performance advantage in all wind directions and course directions. WELL? :) :)
     
  3. sorenfdk
    Joined: Feb 2002
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    sorenfdk Yacht Designer

    Please don't believe anything Mighetto says! This man is bordering on the insane. If you don't believe me, check out the "TP52" thread or the "Incredible "Secrets of Yacht Design" website..." thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2005
  4. asathor
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    asathor Senior Member

    Let me know how many canting keels you would like for $180k each. At that price I will even make them see through and water ballasted with aeration for the creatures that move inside.

    On a more serious note, I looked at some of the Italian links, they are talking HUGE boats. 20' to 40' boat keel "canters" ought to be possible for less than the cost of a matching engine size in standardized production parts (not counting the keel and existing building costs).

    Richard, I will invent you one with all the features you asked for, in fact I will even spec you a stearing yoke with fingertip switches to replace the wireless wheel/rudder, but you will have to conceptualize your own horizontal wingsail mechanism inteface ;)
     
  5. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    I believe that - with reference to the canting keel - we know where we stand at present and that this thread may be closed for the time being. Unless a certain Mr Mighetto buys his Schock 40 - we might then reopen it.
    :confused:
     
  6. Asathor, I will operate the concession stand,$$. :p
     
  7. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Another Canting Keel (retractable yet)

    Another Canting Keel (retractable yet)

    courtesy of www.sailingscuttlebutt.com

    LAUNCHING
    We normally don't report on boat launchings, but there is a pretty
    significant one happening on Monday, February 14 in Auckland, NZ. The boat
    is the 100-foot Maximus, which is modestly described as the 'World's
    fastest and most advanced supermaxi.' Designed by Greg Elliott and Clay
    Oliver for New Zealand businessmen Charles Brown and Bill Buckle, boat's
    featured include:
    - Light displacement carbon fiber construction
    - Rotating wing mast
    - Retractable canting keel
    - Maximum power to weight ratio
    - 500 Square Meter upwind sail area
    - 800 Square Meter downwind sail area

    Previous commitments will prevent the curmudgeon from attending the
    launching, but there is lots more information and photos on the GBS
    Yachting website: www.supermaxi.co.nz/
     
  8. brian eiland
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    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Canting Comments

    Chris Ericksen:
    As one who was in the hydraulics business for 15 years, the stories ofcanting-keel problems occurring when an hydraulic ram or cylinder is fully extended leads me to wonder why people don't use a different hydraulic device to cant a keel: a rotary actuator. The kind I am thinking of is a rack-and-pinion device wherein pistons attached to either end of a rack rotates a pinion gear that would in turn be attached to the axle of the keel. I am sure folks smarter than I have considered and rejected this, but I wonder why this simple and robust device has not been used heretofore.

    From Kenny Robertson:
    As an additional comment to Chris Ericksen's comments about using a rack and pinion, has anyone thought of using a worm gear type of actuator [like the tuning nuts on a guitar]. The advantage of this is that it is a one way system, where the actuator can move the keel, but once in position, it would be impossible [if we exclude catastrophic mechanical failure of components] for the keel to move even if the actuator was removed completely. It would also be very easy to add a manual emergency system to it. Once again to echo Chris' comments "I am sure folks smarter than I have considered and rejected this, but I wonder why this simple and robust device has not been used heretofore."


    From R. Geoffrey Newbury (Re: Canting Keels):
    I've been reading Conrad Humphrey's posts on his site. I am utterly astounded that anyone would build a canting keel system and expect to race it around the world without any arrangement which would allow the keel to be physically pinned in position. These designs rely totally on the integrity of the hydraulic system. Have these designers never heard of Murphy's Laws? Is there any reason why the keel design could not allow for the keel to be pinned with a hulking great clevis pin? For safety reasons ORC should ban canting keels which cannot be physically pinned in at least the upright position. Anything less than that is manifestly unsafe
     
  9. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    pinned/back up

    Someone on another forum pointed out that the new Offshore Regulations in the ISAF/US Sailing rulebook have just such a requirement. Don't have my new book yet so I can't verify that.
    But I sure agree with it...
     
  10. I know this is not going to sound like me, Mister Cautious, BUT. Hydraulic self locking systems are-should- be safer than any other, due to very simple and accurate relief valves and end of travel cushioning stops. New applications in a skimpy safety margin specification, RACING, make any improvement liable to look bad.-----------------We do not put locking pins in skyscraper super fast elevators. Why a slow canting keel. If you do not know what you are doing, blame someone else, and make it offical. DUH DUH. :eek:
     
  11. bobothehobo
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    bobothehobo Junior Member

    Don't know if you guys have heard, but the sister boat to Skandia in the Vendee Globe, Ecover--skippered by Mike Golding, has just lost her keel (canting) only 50 miles from the finish....Mike is currently making 3 kts but has to sail upwind to the finish and does not have the ability to tack....he has sailed 23000 miles and is currently in 3rd place...lets hope he can someone finish safely....

    www.vendeeglobe.org/uk
     
  12. amolitor
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    amolitor Junior Member

    Yep, I have been following the Vendee Globe, and am trying to figure out who did NOT have keel problems. I make it 4 boats that have non-fixed keels that have not experienced trouble yet (that we know about). Two of the canters seem to have simply broken off, which might well have nothing to do with canting per-se. I can count at least three other non-fixed keels that have had trouble.

    However, this is a very tough race, and you expect a lot of stuff to break! Arguably a design that breaks 50 miles from the end is plenty strong enough for, well, any other application you can imagine.
     
  13. bobothehobo
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    Location: Newport

    bobothehobo Junior Member

    I suspect Mike began to have problems with the Canter quit some time ago, the flaw just became fatal at this point....
     
  14. bobothehobo
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    Location: Newport

    bobothehobo Junior Member

    PRB (Vincent Riou) who finished #1 had problems with his keel all the way up the Atlantic but didn't reveal it until after he finished....strategy and all...
     

  15. mistral
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    mistral Senior Member

    so let's sum up about canter and Vendee globe:
    -Sill e Voila/ Jourdain: failure with a crack in the keel support, retired
    -PRB/Riou: hydraulic failure of a ram, kept on racing
    -Skandia/Moloney: total loss of the keel, retired
    -Norbert Sedlacek/Brother: failure of the keel support, retired
    -Ecover/golding: partial loss of the keel, hope he'll get the finish line!!!
    -Hellomoto/Conrad Humpreys: failure on starboard ram, keep on with port ram

    have i forgot someone ????
    quite impressive, isn't it???
    The thing that keeps me astonished is that keel failures are probably the only kind of failure that Vendee's guys/girls are unable to repair; they've repaired almost everything on their boats, but with a keel total failure you just have to go home, if you can, or at least try to drive your boat in spite of the problems, like Vincent Riou has done with PRB.
    I think canting keel issues are the real problem to deal with for IMOCA designer now!!!
     
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