Canting Keels In Production Yachts

hysterical

Yago, I jumped on you a little too hard; my apologies for my excesses. Thanks for your follow up post..
Thanks Richard for a sober analysis...

 

D'ARTOIS, thanks for throwing our anchors out.

 

I hate to admit it, but talking about racing boats is more interesting then the latest cocktail sailboat screw ups

 

Hi D'ARTOIS
"In Dusseldorf, I will check also if there are already commercial canting keels available for cruising boats."

Have you any news from Dusseldorf?

Gina22

 

here we are, two production boats suited for canting keel, they're new designs, they are both still on the drawing board.

http://www.ceccarelliyachtdesign.com/ita/CYD4003.html
http://www.ceccarelliyachtdesign.com/ita/ceccarelli80.html


fair wind
Mistral

 

Reply to Gina

Correct, I owe you one.

Frankly speaking: I talked to people from Cariboni who countered my question with another one: which boat do you have in mind. In other words they were not (yet) approached by builders of yachtseries. As they say. Somebody from Beneteau told me that they plan - or, to say it more carefully, they may be able to offer in certain types of yachts, if the client requires, on his own responsibility, a CBF or CBTF system.
The Beneteau organisation is a very large one, with many boatbrands, and it is fully acceptable that if a client in an isolated case wants such a device added to his/hers purchase, and will pay the bill for this considerable addition, then WHO will say NO?
But this was not the intention for my thread. Even the concept-yacht Mistral refers to does not fall in this category, because it's only an idea, a proposal that may never see the glory of daylight.
From a number of designers and builders I got a very negative response. But NOT from the racing guys. Logic no?
If a company like Dehler - who produces a standard design spread over a range of boaltlengths, put a canting keel as an option on their saleslist - then I would say, ok here is a manufacturer who is able to support this idea in a sense that they might be able to produce a boat where the CK is an already integrated advancement and they are also able to support or back up any claim deriving from this modern addition.

If such a company makes that step, you may rest assured that they did not do it in one night.

The present situation is: if you buy a production yacht and you want to have the addition of a canting keel, whether or not with a foil system, you do that operation on own risk - i.e. the manufacturer or yard will not accept any claim deriving from the change of standard design. Unless otherwise agreed.
But that's lawyer's talk.

Another thing is that you buy a design that has the CK integrated in the design-profile. If in such a case a yard accepts the commission, it is automatically responsible for all the aspects of the CK concerning proper functioning etc. too. Of course only in case they do not exclude any resposibility to that design's aspect.

A few said: Ok we will accept resposibility only under cruising circumstances - not under racing- or competition conditions.

And now we are back to the statement of one of the posters, who said that the distinction between the racing yacht and the cruising yacht would only become bigger. As is more or less the situation in car racing.

It was this fact I wanted to have established and it looks that the issue of the canting keel, in whatever execution, will be applied to the yachts in the high end of the market, in that respect the canting keel will be used - as an option - to attract a group of clients that have a preference for such design-extensions.

Long time ago, we were organising seminars and classes for amateur shipbuilders. Very closely we studied specific designs and we tried to bring it to the participant's atention: where will you sail?
With that in mind and afterwards looking at the nasty waters we are blessed with, I believe that only the few racing yachts that we have over here will (finally) be equipped with the CK. Otherwise they cannot compete internationally. Unless a general accepted rule comes that directs otherwise.

In spite of all this, I do not believe that all these top-of-the-bill gadgets, can add anything substantial to my pleasure of sailing. On the contrary, I would say. I prefer the rugged type of extremely seaworthy yachts, even racing yachts. Where additions were made to improve the ship, not making it more subject to failures that can even be fatal soemtimes - if unlicky.

In my next post I will give a few examples.

In the big assembly of climates and counrties and waters of the USA you may find alway something of your liking. We in Holland have very little to choose from. We have a large but very shallow inland lake, the IJsselmeer, with lots of traffic and we have the Northsea, dangerous by nature, and spoiled by international shipping that comes from all directions. A 125 nm trip to the UK needs already full attention of the crew 24/24 - that means continuous watch all day, all night. Unexpected windshifts, lots of traffic will make you ready for sudden changes of set courses.
Do you think that I like to be pestered under such conditions with a keel that I have to haul from port to starboard or vice versa?
Come here, sail a day with me and tell me afterwards.

Please comment.

 

Artois i perfectly agree with you; Beneteau , Delher and other big mass production shipyards are not dealing with CK issue; that is the main fact , and that means that canting keel is not seen as an appealing solution in order to sell boats, that's all!!
i don't think it's a matter of reliability, simply CK is not cost/effective now, it will add something not required by market at a high price spent to develope reliable solutions; shipyards are really sensible to reliability of their product; they don't like to spend their money in lawyer to defend themselves!!! As amatter of fact we can see that their boats are quite conservative; it took a decade to bring carbon masts form pure racer to some kind of high-level racer/cruiser as it happens today, and i think that calculate reliable scantlings properly for a carbonmast is easier than doing it for a CK.

fair wind
Mistral

 

canting keels: no to retro fit

I think it wold be an unfortnate step down the wrong path if companies like Beneteau start offering canting keels for boats not designed specifically for them...

 

Exactly Mr Lord. Bingo! That is what I have said: you have to design your hull and scantlings around the CK(TF) concept - as done by the Italian designer. Because it is not an addition to - but an integral part - of the design. I agree fully. And I think that the reply of Mistral covers fully the principles of the (mass) production yards who cannot afford to imply the CK keel in their production boats but will make their high-end and therefore almost one-off designs available to this modern system. Maybe in a few years the canting keel wil become just as popular as the epoxy matrixed boat now.
In Holland, we were among the first to use epoxy as matrix material in the larger designs, and what kind of verbal abuse we had to endure when we started to promote our new application. Worse than the CF now, Mr Lord.
How we clinched with Beneteau when they started tio "energise" their hulls by using the 1st generation of untreated Kevlar in their production hulls, not expecting that by using ortho resins the laminate was subject to delamination at high impact loads!
But - in that respect we may learn from each other. What do we in Holland know about yachtproduction in the US? I learn from the fact that I see the yacht only in the environment of the Northsea and tempt to forget that there are more pleasant conditions too.

 

Mini TransAt

I think that this goes against the spirit of the thread, but there are "production racing yachts" with the canting keel technology. The mini transat. Definitely NOT a cocktail cruiser. I lifted the following paragraph from the "Unofficial MiniTransAt Site": http://www.xs4all.nl/~blvrd/

There are currently a few designs in the production class active, the new Pogo2 (2003), Naus (2003), Pogo (1995), the SuperCalin (2001) and the Coco. The Coco being an outdated 1984 design , but still sailed, but more in the pre MiniTransat races... More boats want to become a Production Class, but as far as I know they are not yet qualified.
SEE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE FOR A COMPARISON IN DIMENSIONS BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT BOATS

The list of wannabees:
(2004, April)
- Mistral, no 8 is being build, did the MT 03 as proto.
- Tizef, one in the water I believe.
- Zero, 7 build, 9 ordered, first racing.
- Ginto, 7 build/12 ordered, first racing.
- Dingo, Rolland design, 4 ordered.

 

I veiw canting keels in the same light as turbines in boats. Both are proven additions for what they provide. BUT how many people really want the operational maint. of them?

 

And if canting keels are not enough bother, this little fellow has a canting/sliding keel.

 

canting /sliding

I know D'artois PRODUCTION canting keels,not race boats. But I just had to say something: that is one of the most brilliant(patented) canting keel installations I know of and has had trial by ocean mile in the mini Transat. Simon Rogers designed that system-or someone copied his race winning design. It allows the keel to move fore and aft which on a boat as small as a mini is a great idea.

 

I tell you what Mr Lord, what about designing a mini transat and enter the next TA? I checked the rules today and 6.50 is pretty controllable to build. I am not joking.
When we get back to the last picture, was the canting operation mechanical or under hydraulic power, i.e. with a manual operated pump? Then the aft- and f'orwards mechanism? Hydraulic ram?

Any idea?

 

mini 6.5

Mr. D'artois: the Rogers design is 100% manual with lines led to the cockpit to move the keel either direction....
Since we're on the subject anyway do you see that big ugly daggerboard up forward? Well I've come up with a solution that gets rid of that thing but isn't proven yet. And that is the kFOIL™ that is basically a pivoting wing or two pivoting wings that retract into the bulb. So you have extra lateral resistance when you need it upwind but it can be retracted when not needed-just one more line to the cockpit but saves room inside, retracts when it hits an object and doesn't change the balance of the boat when the keel cants.Not only that but it's easier to operate than a daggerboard. Some canting keel boats with the daggerboard so far separated from the keel fin can have balance problems(excessive weather helm) when the keel is canted because the CLR moves forward-not with the kFOIL.
I mention this because the kFOIL™ MAY be incorporated in a mini design for 2007-waiting to hear if the skipper gets his financing....