Bavaria Match 42 lost its keel...

[Herman]

Originally Posted by JamesUk

The floor grid of a Bavaria Match is bonded to the internal surface of the hull. The problem is the thickness amd area of the bonding, the pictures show cracks developing at the 90 degree turn from hull to the vertical face of the frames.

The J&J spec modification increases the area of the bonding by about 70% and the thickness of the bonding by 300%.

Bavaria should have increased it already during construction. Also, akeel laminate that thin will flex, and eventually wick itself loose from the frames. No matter how strong those frames are.

Two months ago the magazine Yachting World published a sequence of photos showing the steps of the reinforcement to a Bavaria Match. The pictures and text confirm the whole area of the bilge is cut back with an angle grinder including the inner hull surface and the side of the support frames.

Again, Bavaria should have sanded the inner hull before installing frames. You just cannot rely on chemical bonding to take place, especcially with DCPD resins.

In the 2004 ARC (transatlantic) there were about 18 Beneteaus, 13 Bavarias and 10 Hallberg Rasseys. Doesn’t sailing across the Atlantic count as real sailing in your book?

Of course that counts. But compared to the numbers of boats that are sold, Bavaria boats were in a sheer minority.

The modifications that are done right now to the 42 will definately improve the situation. I just hope that the problems will not be transferred to the next reinforcement. (transition from stiff area to a more flexible area).

About the picture of your boat: It is not a 42. Compare your situation to the pictures of the 42. See the difference? But do you also see your keel bolt, with just the washer? (of course i cannot see the rest, so can't judge too much.) but definately your structure seems to look a lot more solid than the 42.

[Tvermoes]

Well, the picture from JamesUK shows indeed frames/transoms, but these does not count.

The keel is also in the 35 bolted in the bottom as I can see, not through the frames. As I understand from the picture, there are 2 bolts in the bilge pump area. I suppose these are for the keel. The washers are also here of ridicilous size. The part under the shoe shows a bigger and thicker plate/"washer", a bit better, but still in the bottom of the hull.
(By the way, this is made of Stainless Steel A4, not Aluminium i must ask?)


Of course with a thick enough laminate, it will hold the load, but a) this seems not to be in the spec for the 42 with a <8 mm thickness and b) it is a heavy and expensive solution.

The current solution relies on the hull able to transfer the load to the frames, i.e. the bonding is crucial.

Looking on the pictures on the damaged boat, we havbe a square hole, between the frams, so here the load was not tranafered at all.

Still, has anyone any info about the keel of the lost boat and if there is any damage visible on it?

I'd like to point out that I have no bad feeling agains Bavaria, but when an incorrect design (I suppose Bavaria has not themselves decided to not follow the design, this is known to have happen at other builder resulting in a weak boat) is marketed I get a bit unhappy.

[tamkvaitis]

Dear Jim,
I have repaired old bavarias they have been built in 1980-1985, I cant say that new bavarias have a lot of problems, I hevent worked on any new one, but boat there i worked had a lot of problems. I have repaired interior of a bavaria. We repaired floore beams (they were separete from the hull), When we removed the salon table it was screwed with four wood screws directly to the flore. We repaired biger part of plywood parts, becaus they there moving in places there one sheet of plywood conects other (edges etc.). All in all I worked on old boats biger part of the damege was caused by the age of the boat,but as I said,then I was doing repairs I understood that the boat is designed to be cheap and simple to build, not to maintain.

[rolf]

can you send me an email???

QUOTE=JamesUk]In which case I think you will be impressed by the following photo of the floor grid in my Bavaria Match 35. Four beams take the main weight of the keel and there are additional beams fore and aft of these.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...lGridWhole.jpg



In my Bavaria Match 35 I have standing headroom in the aft cabin and the fore cabin but there is a small step up to the sole in the main cabin. The reason for this upwards step is the height of the beams supporting the keel.[/quote]

[rolf]

I want to discuss the keelconstruction of the Bavaria 35 Match. Owners of a 35 match please contact me.

[Peter Puttock]

Hi,

I have just agreed to purchase a Match 42, which has strengthening of the keel area.

This was done by the agents and looks pretty impressive to me. I have previously owned a Beneteau Oceanis 461 and Jeanneau Voyage 12.5, and this is considerably more beefy.

The picture is too big to upload but I will try to convert and make a smaller sized file so you can see the revised structure.

I'll let everyone know how it goes, but I suspect I will be inspecting the keel area at regular intervals!

Regards

[rolf]

hi

thanks for your reply
if you have pics I am very interested in this
so I hope you can send this to me
use my emailadres rolfbelonje@tiscali.nl
so send youre emailadres as well

thkx
rolf

[Peter Puttock]

Hi,

Here is a photograph of 2 supports. The structure is extensive, each steel support "beam" being 50 + cm.

Regards

[Vega]

Bavaria has lost a lot of money with that bad publicity. They can't afford another major issue, so I believe that if the reinforcement has been made according to Bavaria new specifications that should be bullet proof, probably better than in other similar boats.

It looks good, but if I were in your position I would hire the services of a professional surveyor, just to be sure.

[Peter Puttock]

Having test sailed the Match in a competition boat, which won a race or two, I think the issue is really down to the Match being a good performance boat. I was astounded (as a conventional cruiser owner), at the speed conversion between wind speed and boat speed.

At one point we were sailing with just the main, up-pointing and outpeforming a Swan 45 with a race team on board!

The cost, I suspect is that by losing the weight, some strength was compromised.

Going back to the Croatia capsizing, has anyone got any further information about the outcome of investigations? It all seemed to go very quiet.

Regards

Peter

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Peter Puttock

The cost, I suspect is that by losing the weight, some strength was compromised.
Peter

The problem is that the Match 42 is not an expensive boat and to lose all that weight and maintain the same strength as a Bavaria cruising boat, costs would have to be very high, and that is not the case.

The Match42 is racing oriented and you should not expect it to have the same strength of a Bavaria cruising sail boat. You have to be careful with that boat, as you should be with any racing machine, and also expect more maintenance. But yes, it is a very fast racing boat for an incredible low price.

[Wellydeckhand]

What about the non racing type? Is it any safe? I have received Jade Marine HongKong (Bavaria agent) cataloges and am considering their yachts.

[Vega]

Welly....you have to make up your mind

Bavarias, like Beneteaus and a lot of mass produced boats are budget boats.
They are a lot of a boat for the money they cost but they are not intended as passage makers and they are not very strong boats.

This does not mean that the boats are not safe and a friend of mine is cruising extensively (alone) with a Bavaria 36ft without any problem (he went to America, came back and last I have heard of him he was cruising in Turkey) and a country man of mine has completed a circumnavigation (also alone) in a 37ft. This means only that there are better boats, a lot more suitable for the job, than this kind of mass production inexpensive fiberglass boat (but they cost at least twice).

In your case, given your skills as a boatbuilder I am sure you can make a very good steel sailing boat for the same cost of a Bavaria, and if well finished, after circumnavigating, you can sell the boat and have a profit.

If you want the type of Bavaria’s boat but heavier and seaworthy, built in steel, take a look at the van de Stadt 44 Madeira or even the 47 Samoa or the 48 Tasman.

http://www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds474.htm
http://www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds426429.htm

These are passagemakers and appropriate boats to circumnavigate. And I believe that the designers will give you a good support.

Or if you want another type of boat, perhaps more suitable to you, have a look at the steel plans of martin-bekebrede:

http://www.martin-bekebrede.nl/design_detail.php?ID=20
http://www.martin-bekebrede.nl/design_detail.php?ID=54

And take a look at a finished boat:

http://www.bijko.nl/?groep_id=2050&site_id=48

[Gina22]

Mi Oppinion is, Bavaria has lost an Sailor, on your bad Ship, an must the Familiy peayed firsrt. Second, it is vorbidden the build an ship for Amateers.

Gina22

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Gina22

Mi Oppinion is, Bavaria has lost an Sailor, on your bad Ship, an must the Familiy peayed firsrt. Second, it is vorbidden the build an ship for Amateers.
Gina22

Hello Gina.

I strongly disapprove the way Bavaria has dealt with this entire nasty situation.

About amateurs being forbidden to build boats, I think we did not reach that point yet . However the boat must have to pass the tests, for certification (in thre EU).

Anyway Welly is from Indonesia, and I am sure that they don't have those problems.