Ballast preference for racing yacht?

[gbr43926]

Hi all,
When considering a modern Medium sized racing yacht, for example a J 109 (35ft) what type of ballast would YOU prefer?
Basing your opinon on;

Righting force created,
Affordability,
Useability,
Reliability,
+ anything else which would sway your decision.

Options are;

A) Standard fixed keel
B) Movable water ballast
C) Canting Keel - please state if engine/non engine hydraulic, pulleys? etc

Thanks!

[Raggi_Thor]

Drop keel with a bulb :-)

55°+ canting keel with CBTF or kFOIL; possibly combined with on-deck(sliding) water ballast + racks to the limit of the rule.....

[Roly]

Drop keel with bulb and built in water ballast (that can double as buoyancy chambers).Because I cruise 75% of the time and don't want crap on my deck
or complex hydraulic/mechanical keel cantin paraphalia below.
Besides, my budget precludes the size boat that makes them viable.

[longliner45]

fixed keel ,, in rough weather ,I dont have time to be moving ballast ,,I know how she rides all the time,,,,,,bulbs seem to be new and have a tendancy to break off ,,,,old school for me. prepare for war in times of peace,,longliner

[gbr43926]

The only worry i have about on-deck sliding ballast is positive height.. if the ballast is not shifted through a tack will the boat capsize? whats the method of shifting the ballast tank? winch? gravity? has anybody considered a canting keel combined with on-deck moveable ballast which are controlled from one mechanism?

[LP]

I think that ballast type is mission specific. (Race vs. Cruise)

The more moving parts a system have the more maintainance will be required.

What happens when the system fails?

I'm a fan of simple and least moving parts.

Originally Posted by gbr43926

The only worry i have about on-deck sliding ballast is positive height.. if the ballast is not shifted through a tack will the boat capsize? whats the method of shifting the ballast tank? winch? gravity? has anybody considered a canting keel combined with on-deck moveable ballast which are controlled from one mechanism?

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GBR, Julian Bethwaite and Martin Billoch have published(on SA) a concept for a 60' monohull with buoyancy pods that was to use on-deck ballast sliding inside one of the cross arms-probably water in a tank. Here's a pix of their idea:
billochcut.jpg
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe...billochcut.jpg Changed:6:21 PM on Wednesday, September 28, 2005
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On-deck ballast on a big boat like theirs(probably) or in my 60' monofoiler concept would be water because in the event of trouble or light air it can be drained quickly. Also, it may be better to slide the water in a tank rather than pump it long distances. Although, the 59' foiler Hydroptere does pump water ballast from the rudder all the way out to the maximum of the 80' beam. But sliding ballast would probably work a lot faster and speed of movement will be more important on monohull.
I'm building an experimental 20 footer that will use sliding lead ballast in a molded wing: both the wing(supported by trapeze wires) and lead slide giving tremendous RM. The wing is designed to have buoyancy pods at the ends and the wing buoyancy including pods is greater than the sliding lead weight.
Both my 20 footer and 60 foot monofoiler concept rely on a canting keel in addition to the on-deck ballast. I've built numerous rc models testing this concept and it works quite well where self righting is required.

[gbr43926]

doug, do you have any pictures of your 20 and 60ft designs? does the keel and ballast work independant of one another or are they controlled by one mechanism? what kind of righting force are you getting?

GBR, no pix yet. The 60 footer is just a concept at this point but the first post under that thread is pretty detailed in terms of technical info. In essence, on both boats the canting keel is there only to make the boat rightable; most of the RM comes from the on deck-ballast-which is water on the big boat and lead on the little boat.
The concept on the little boat is to create a "sit in" keelboat(like a 2.4 meter) but many,many times faster-foiling off the wind. The idea is to have a platform to do a number of experiments with the Trapwing and foiling a keelboat.
If you go to the microsail.com website you can see a picture on the front page of a Melges 24RC model fitted with an on-deck system and if you go inside you can find pictures of the microMOTH monofoiler using the same system.

[longliner45]

foilers and canting keels are nice but too delicate for mother nature ,,,,,,in the real world,,longliner

Longliner, thats absurd: read the story of Rohan Veals friend sailing a Bladerider foiler into rock at 15 knots with only minor damage.
Williwaw still holds the record set at least 20 years ago for a foiler with something like 25,000 ocean miles more or less. It's always been my opinion that ocean going foilers require some kind of radar/sonar that could spot objects at or just below the surface-Hydroptere has now been fitted with that kind of equipment.
As to canting keels-they have an excellent overall record despite the highly publicized failures on some race boats. Many designers have designed longterm successfull canting keel boats including Eric Sponberg,Doug Frolich, Steve Baker(Dirk Cramer), Reichel-Pugh and others-you're dead wrong on this one since there is a long history of mostly success...

[longliner45]

dont need to read the story,,,look at the volvo race,also how about this ,,,,,your in a race ,and everything is peachy ,,untill you hit the log and besides ..counting on electronics to see for you is absurd,, unless you and your crew can react at 187000 miles per second ,,,,,,the speed of light...for me tried and true works ,,fixed keel with rudder right behind the keel,,alow the keel to take the hit not your rudder,,,,ballast on extended arms ,,,,,,,,,,no way

[longliner45]

also this ,,untill designers design and build boats to be boats,and not for the sake of advertising ,, underware or whatever for one race the boating industry will faulter , who wants a boat for one day or week?why is there so many classic designs still floating ,,,,,,,sailboats used to be low profile .and had alott of boat in the water,,,and some substantial ballast,,,you could ride a hurrican out in them,,,,,,,,,not with the junk of todays market,,,,,,longliner

[Mychael]

Have to agree with Longliner on this. (Granted I'm not a racer where the whole point is in the winning).
I like a boat that can have a bit of performance in ALL conditions and not likely to get me drowned at the same time. I wanna get there and back in one piece.

Mychael