Ballast preference for racing yacht?

Originally Posted by Mychael

Have to agree with Longliner on this. (Granted I'm not a racer where the whole point is in the winning).
I like a boat that can have a bit of performance in ALL conditions and not likely to get me drowned at the same time. I wanna get there and back in one piece.

Mychael

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And you can do that on most canting keel boats-no problems. And sooner or later on larger foilers as well...

[longliner45]

all that might work on model boats doug,,,but untill youve had your ass beat in a storm,,,,you havent lived.........longliner

Listen, dozens and dozens of canting keel boats have survived major storms at sea over the last twenty years with no ill effect; a relatively few raceboats got some negative publicity and some are content to just plain ignore the facts about the safety of the vast majority of canting keel installations.
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And heres more on Williwaw that successfully cruised the Pacific(over 20,000 miles!) on hydrofoils THIRTY years ago-and a bit on Tom Speers plans for a successor to that boat:
the current page
Address:http://www.basiliscus.com/CaseStudy/overview.html Changed:11:27 PM on Sunday, November 21, 2004

[Raggi_Thor]

You can't judge all canting keels by a few accidents in extreme racing.
Remember the Bavaria 40(?) that lost it's keel?
Does that mean that all fin keels with bulbs are dangerous?

However, I would PREFER a simple drop keel with a bulb for cruising :-)

[longliner45]

sometimes people make ocean going voyages in jon boats or other small craft not intended for that . like the guys who wants to run from california to catalina islands on a sailboard,,yes it can be done.,,,,,,,,,,sometimes...........I believe nothing I hear and half of what I see,doug I was a journeyman utility machinist,,,and a journeyman millwrite,,I understand tinsal strength of some stuff ,,not all , ,,,,but putting 2 or3 thousand lbs on a extended rod ,,sooner or later you will hit that rouge wave ,,which will over extend the capabilitys of that material,and normal flexing.....and if you dont hit the wave ,,you will hit the object in the water.foils and canting keels are nice ,,as long as you have a 6 or 10 hr, window of good sailing weather to enjoy,,,,,,,but offshore racers dont have that luxury,,you gotta go ,with what you got. or what you might get,weather wise,Ive been around boats all my life ,,Im in ohio now ,born in boston ,,,(fisherman stock) raised in hampton va, commercial fished in the gulf. the man did ask my opinion , of keels,, dont feel like getting into a pissing match ,,with ya,,but dozens and dozens dont compare to thousands and thousands .....longliner

[Mychael]

I guess the "preference" (in the context of racing) which is what this thread was about would be canting. or some type of moveable.
My personal preference (and I never win anything) is a fixed keel and if there was a way to make a full (long) keel competitive then I'd rather have that as a choice.
Aslo from a shorthanded sailing perspective then a fixed keel has just gotta be better.

Mychael

[RHough]

Originally Posted by longliner45

foilers and canting keels are nice but too delicate for mother nature ,,,,,,in the real world,,longliner

Since this thread is about racing, I'll disagree just a bit. In the (very limited) context of mono-hull racing, canting keels seem to be the answer to the question. The question is absurd, but canting keels as an answer are viable.

The absurd questions of course is; If you are designing a racer, what mistake did you make that requires the boat to carry any ballast at all?

It is only when discussing designs limited by rule requirements that the question of ballast preference comes up. No one in their right mind would design a boat with a fixed weight ballast system if they were not constrained by rules.

As far as non-racing applications go, I agree completely. Keels and ballast should be fixed ... simpler almost always = better.

My personal preference is water ballast. You only need to carry the extra weight when the boat needs it (when speed gained from extra righting moment exceeds speed of lighter boat). When you don't need the RM, it makes no sense to cart around the weight.

[longliner45]

yes RHough,I see the light,,the question was for racing boats,,,,,you dont drive a nascar to the grocery store,,,,but much technology is gained for the rest of us ,,and this bleeds over to boats. I have noticed that many (regular folks ) are taking a liking to these designs,,,,,,,,but are using the boats for more than racing.,,juat my opinion,,some people are trendy,,and dont have time for research,,study,and time,,,,longliner

[Florian]

If a canting keel is allowed in racing it will win of a fixed keel, but my problem with the canting keel on for example on a VO70 is: They always have there engine running for the heavy hydrolics... so basicly the are using an engine to go faster. Now it almost becomes inportent on, for example the inport races, who has the biggest engine an can move his keel faster! Thats not my idee of sailing. On a mini 650 it is moved by hand and thats fine, but are whe not crossing the line a little bit between sailing and motorboats?

[tri - star]

Basicaly, I agree with you - longliner45.....

Is there not a saying:
" Those that ignore history, will be FORCED to RELIVE it !" ?!

I remember one of the Greatest sailor/racers in history, who got
into SERIOUS difficuties in a high tech. " leading edge " yacht.
{ A prize for any one who can come up with his name.}
....'give you some hints... he spoke French.
- Also was known to sail a tri-foiler...a few times.

The memory of the story, has grown misty with time, so I may be
a bit shaky on the details.....

Anyway the gist of it, goes like this:
There was a SINGLEHANDED race across the Pacific.
The racing yacht was very gee - whiz... Pretty flat aft - so it could
"plane" and surf down waves.
Also I seem to remember a hull with curves AND alum. Together !

The most radical element was the WATER BALLAST.
Consider the bravery and reflexes of a guy prepared to sail a flat
bottomed, movable ballast boat.....as hard as he can ! A long way...

He wins the race.

- And as a reward to himself; goes cruising....to the west of Japan.

Now; some of the most treacherous weather on the planet protects
this island nation. As a very large invading naval force learned to
their bitter sorrow. The Samurai, very effectively held them off, long
enough for the " benevolent wind " to utterly destroy the whole fleet.
Leaving very few - to be taken prisoner.

Possibly, Eric (Whoops !), had not read HIS history books either.
Or very understandably, having just completed one of the most
arduous voyages in living memory. - He was a 'mit tired.
Anyway, he let his garde down....

Apparently, in this local - the mountains on the main land, tend to
" hide " bad weather. Just as hills do around a lake....Then the wind
changes. As it funnels between the peaks. It will accellerate.
- And swoop down on the unaware. That's what happened to our
Ace Racer
His boat was knocked FLAT. Mast in the water.
Obviously, his skill and determination, got himself out of trouble.
That time.....To live - to tell the tale.

.....'point is: - if this can happen to the Best of the Best.
Who can be so arrogant, as to think that upping the techno. ante
- will magicaly solve all your nautical concerns ?!

Cheers !

P.S. - longliner45. As you have learned, getting involved in
endless discussions with Mr. Lord can make 'yo head spin...!
Is it worth it ?

Original question: what kind of ballast would you prefer for a RACING yacht?
50+% of respondents say a fixed keel. And some say water ballast.
In big boats the record shows that canting keels are ,without doubt, the fastest against both fixed keels and waterballast.
I find it interesting that the majority have chosen the slowest form of the types of ballast
presented..

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Original question: what kind of ballast would you prefer for a RACING yacht?
50+% of respondents say a fixed keel. And some say water ballast.
In big boats the record shows that canting keels are ,without doubt, the fastest against both fixed keels and waterballast.
I find it interesting that the majority have chosen the slowest form of the types of ballast
presented..

Because people that race know that racing is about relative speed, not absolute speed?

There is also no doubt that canting keels add complexity to a boat. That they are faster than a similar sized boat with fixed or water ballast means nothing. If they race under a handicap system, there is no advantage since all boats under a good handicap system have an equal chance of winning (if the rating system works correctly). Why add expense and complexity if you race under a handicap rule?

If you race under a box rule or "open" rule, the only reason to have a canting keel is if the rule allows it. The choice of canting keel is not the sailor's choice, but the rulemaker's choice. If open rules were truly open, how many boats would have any ballast at all?

Because most big monos with canting keels have to run engines to tack? This offends the majority of sail racers.

Originally Posted by RHough

That they are faster than a similar sized boat with fixed or water ballast means nothing.

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Right, sure.... Thats a Dudism if I ever heard one!

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Original question: what kind of ballast would you prefer for a RACING yacht?
50+% of respondents say a fixed keel. And some say water ballast.
In big boats the record shows that canting keels are ,without doubt, the fastest against both fixed keels and waterballast.
I find it interesting that the majority have chosen the slowest form of the types of ballast
presented..

What you are failing to recognize is that crew = water ballast.
Rail meat is the kind of ballast currently favored on racing yachts. This
will change as more crew demand pay.

[Roly]

Dudism,very witty.
I don't think "fairplay" has anything to do with cult.
More to do with the values your parents instilled.

That they are faster than a similar sized boat with fixed or water ballast means nothing.

...other than the boat has non-human energy supplied to move ballast the crew couldn't.

Takes the onus off "sailing".

It is a battle of technology, but not engine powered technology.
Now, if you could utilize the wind to move the keel I would be a instant believer.....

You are just bringing back your old BS in another form.
But, then again, apples are oranges.