Another Big Canting Keel Boat has Blown-up its Mast

[Pericles]

OK, we've come a mighty long way from canting keels, but I could not resist these links. Imagine going downwind following the PIED PIPER.

http://www.kitesociety.org.uk/Exceptional%20Kites.pdf

The idea of a self supporting traction kite led me in search of a toy I had and which I found on the marvellous Internet. Scaling it up would require some serious engineering for the wings, but with a R/C tailplane, it could be steerable.

http://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~anthony/kites/rotor/plane/

The more I looked, the more I found.

http://www.tug.com/kites/zoo/single/rot/rot.html

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/59...scription.html

http://www.drachen.org/

http://kitehistory.com/

I think I had better stop now.

Pericles

[GuestR01312011]

More Rigs go bang, there's an underlying problem me thinks...

[Pericles]

Where?

[GuestR01312011]

Open 60's some interesting ones too, only the top 1/4 falling?

[masalai]

Hay curri, this is show & tell. not tease and tickle

[GuestR01312011]

Sorry thought you guys would have found out already,
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe...es/PRB%203.jpg PRB's top section failed.
Also
''The fourth place IMOCA 60, Delta Dore becomes the latest victim in the Barlelona World Race, dropping their rig in a bout 25 true. They cut the rig away and are weighing their options, which are not very appealing''

Sailing Anarchy has the info.

Strange happenings though, Im thinking it has more to do with the Wide hull forms more than the canting keels as the previous races had canters but with less form stability...?

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Pericles

...What speed could IDEC do with the SkySail?

I have been out of town.
I'll try to find out about this and the helium question with the SkySails people.

Cheers.

[Chris Ostlind]

Veolia Environnement dismasted as Southern Ocean claims one more victim...

18 December 2007

Veolia Environnement skippered by French sailors Roland Jourdain and Jean-Luc Nelias dismasted at 1800 GMT today (Monday, 17.12.07), the skippers are unharmed, and the boat itself undamaged. Veolia Environnement, lying in third place in the Barcelona World Race, was sailing in 22 knots of wind with full mainsail and gennaker, when they were hit by a stronger 30 knot gust of wind forcing the boat to 'nose-dive' into a 2-3 metre wave - the mast broke suddenly 3.5 to 4 metres up from the deck. The position at the time of dismasting was 48 49.49N, 82 42.41E, approximately 1660 miles south-west of the SW tip of Australia and approximately 500 miles east of the Kerguelen Islands.

After cutting the mast away to avoid secondary damage to the boat, the skippers managed to save the boom and one of the outriggers (that support the mast) and once daylight comes will use these parts to build a jury rig to propel the boat under sail, without assistance, towards Australia. Currently however they are advancing at 5 to 6 knots under engine.

From Roland Jourdain:
"It all happened really fast. We dismasted while sailing downwind, in circumstances really close to the ones PRB had (when they broke their mast). We were under full main and gennaker, under autopilot. I was just waking up after a nap, Jean-Luc was on watch, we were both inside. There was 22 knots of wind, we were not pushing hard. There was a gust at 30 knots, the boat picked up speed and surfed down a wave, then nosedived and the mast just broke. We managed to clear up everything relatively quickly, it was done in an hour. The problem was that the mainsail was spread over the boat, we had to cut it, but we salvaged the boom and an outrigger. The mast broke 3.5 to 4 metres above deck level. Everything went overboard, and the stanchions were torn off, but the hull is intact. We're waiting for daybreak then we'll start working on a jury rig. We're motoring towards Australia, at 5 to 6 knots of speed, we have enough fuel for roughly 60 hours.

"It's the third mast problem in a week, yet it's too early to draw conclusions. PRB and us have the same mast, but it broke at different places. Delta Dore had a different spar - there are loads of reasons that could explain those breakages.

"Physically, we were pretty tired after our Kerguelen pit stop, but we were back on track with joy and motivation. We felt that a lot could still happen.and that's what has fallen upon us. What's crazy is that almost exactly three years ago, roughly in the same area, I broke my keel during the 2004 Vendée Globe, and in the 2000 edition, still in the same zone, my mast traveller broke!" concluded Jourdain.

The MRCC Australia (safety organisation) has been informed. The Australian safety gate of the Barcelona World Race course actually keeps the fleet further to the north and closer to their shores.

The weather forecast for Veolia is WSW 22/27kt tonight becoming more W 17/22kt tomorrow (18/12/07) and Wednesday (19/12/07). A depression arriving from the West with the wind shifting NW 30/35kt on Tuesday with sea state becoming rough. The advisable option is to move more North then turning to East along the 43°S to avoid the worst of the depression.

From the Race Organisers:
"We are all very sad to hear of the dismasting of Veolia Environnement but, of course, relieved that Roland and Jean-Luc are safe, that is the important thing. We all know that there is a risk involved in ocean racing of any kind but this does not lessen the immense disappointment that Roland and Jean-Luc must be experiencing and everyone from the race organisation shares in their disappointment and wishes the skippers a safe passage to land," said Andor Serra, Director General of the Fundació Navegació Oceànica Barcelona, co-organisers of the Barcelona World Race.

Mark Turner, CEO of OC Events, co-organisers of the Barcelona World Race added: "We certainly never expected everyone to get around, but of course it's disappointing to see three dismastings before the halfway mark. What we knew before the start of the Barcelona World Race was that it would be the first time these boats have been pushed this hard for this long, with more than one person onboard. The continual evolution of performance in this latest generation of IMOCA 60 boats, driven by ever higher levels of competition, has made them lighter and yet more powerful than ever - the iterative process of finding the right balance between reliability and performance is one that comes with risk in a mechanical sport like ocean racing. The race rules from its conception included pitstops, in recognition of the fact that pushing these boats two-up, rather than their normal round the world solo mode, would make this a finer line than ever. The teams were well prepared for this 26,000 mile marathon around the world and for the Veolia Environnement team it is hard to bear having just returned to the race after making a short pitstop to repair their engine failure at the Kerguelen Islands. Bilou (Roland Jourdain) is a seasoned offshore sailor having completed 3 circumnavigations but for Jean-Luc this was his first round the world attempt and we are hugely disappointed for the both of them.

"What is without question, is that victory in this race is going to be highly cherished - the adage that to win a race you must first finish has never been truer. The crews on Hugo Boss and Paprec-Virbac 2 must really be asking this question hour after hour as they match race their way towards the New Zealand gate in the Cook Straits. The skippers already out of the race have relished the challenge, and have gone home disappointed, but extremely positive about the format of the race. The bar has been set high by this first edition of the Barcelona World Race already," concluded Turner.

The Boat

Technical features of the Veolia Environnement mono-hull

SHELL
Shell length: 60 feet (18.28 m)
Length: 5.50m
Draught: 4.50 m
Air Draught: 28.00 m
Weight: 9.5 Tonnes

SAILS
Mainsail: 160 m2
Spinnaker: 430 m2
Jib: 130 m2
Upwind sail area: 290 m2
Wins sail area: 590 m2

MATERIALS
Nomex Sandwich carbon

SPEED
25-30 knots (45 – 55 kph)

ARCHITECTS
Plan: Marc Lombard
Optimisation: Juan Kouyoumdjian

Just added:

* Mast manufacturer Lorima is having a run of bad luck, as they were the
builder of the three Open 60 masts that have broken in the Barcelona World
Race, along with Britair's Open 60 mast that broke nearly two weeks ago in
the 4,200-mile Transat Ecover BtoB from Brasil to France. All the remaining
entrants in the Barcelona World Race had their masts built by Southern Spars.

[Guillermo]

It seems to me too much coincidence to be a random or design problem. It begins to look like as a manufacturer's one.

Cheers.

[GuestR01312011]

Yeah thats my guess, their materials aren't up to spec or they have made some mistakes in their predictions...

[masalai]

and crew confidently pushing harder and harder because it goes lots faster! Till it breaks... Car manufacturers now do it deliberately (destruction testing). It seems the only way to test the absolute limits, sadly, and it costs.

[DanishBagger]

Bad batch of epoxy?

[GuestR01312011]

Yeah usually the rules specify thats you need to provide the measurers with some samples of your carbon laminates and sandwiches etc. to test.

[Chris Ostlind]

After watching this thread for the past 4 months now, with 117+ posts and more than 4000 viewings, a few things have emerged as clear understandings.

1.) When one compares the damage reports and frequency, canting keel equipped sailboats are much tougher on their rigs than are those sailboats with conventional keels.
2.) Boat and spar designers still have some distance to go to fully understand the loading situations that these boats generate.
3.) The use of canting keels has not found its way into the designs of everyday, cruising boats. I suspect this is mostly because the race guys still haven’t got it all dialed-in. A manufacturer of a boat for a non-racing sailor simply can not take on the added liability and/or cost of an, as yet, unproven system which could cause product failure, recalls, physical damage to the boat and owners, or even a death.
4.) The last observation is made because some of the early statements made about canting keel racing yachts were directed, specifically, with statements such as: “Canting keel technology is going to revolutionize sailing as we know it”, or words to that effect.

Well, the canters have been around for some time now and the technology still has not had much of an impact on commercial, production boat design or building. It may be, that some time out in the future, we will see canting keels as a more viable choice for a cruising craft. It isn’t happening now for any size of boat in anything more than the very odd application when one considers the entire marketplace.

The generic issue is much like the use of carbon fiber for everyday boats. The cost/benefit solution just doesn’t pencil-out when it comes to the design and manufacturing of a boat for a regular guy, with a regular wallet, for regular uses. Carbon still has not come down in price to the point where it could become a viable competitor of fiberglass in the fabrication of production boats for cruising use. Canting keel scenarios for cruising boats follow the same picture. Too much stuff, tied to too much additional cost when a simpler, long proven solution exists when compared to the overall value to the eventual buyer.

I am not saying now, nor will I say ever, that high-technology oriented solutions should not be explored to the fullest. Exploring these ideas is not an either/or situation. I am saying that for something to be realistically viable in the marketplace it can’t be all fiddly bells and whistles or it will live a short commercial life in light of simpler solutions with far lower numbers of related problems.

There is a place for snappy, go-fast products as test beds for ideas, race vehicles and suggestions for future exploration. Unfortunately, unless the high-tech can be polished into a simpler form at a reasonable price, it has little chance of making the migration to a full-blown commercial product.

I’ve had a great time following this thread since it was begun back in September. The reasoned, as well as not so reasoned, comments from the posting members has given me an enormous amount of information from which to base future decisions when it comes to boat design and engineered solutions. The collective brain trust here is remarkable and it’s good to see folks so giving with their knowledge from such a vast background of experiences.

Thank you, all.

[DGreenwood]

Chris
We are on the same page with the future of canting keels being applied to cruising or main stream boats. Hell, the typical guy can't even take care of a basic centerboard enough to make sure the pin doesn't rust through and fall off.

The rig failures could be overcome with the use of a little more carbon but these guys are playing a little too close to the edge. None the less, I don't see the average sailor taking any interest in the maintenance of a canter.

As to the price of carbon and it's future in the market; we have only seen the prices stay high as a result of demand. When production of carbon materials catches up again we will see more use in production boats. Aerospace consumption is really driving the price right now.

As a result of the thinking this thread has induced, I have found myself in some great conversations with engineers, designers and sailors involved in this stuff. I have learned a ton from this thread and it ain't over yet. It will be really interesting to see the comments on the causes of these failures over the coming months. And with three in one race alone, there will be comments ...I betcha'