Americas Cup: whats next?

[Doug Lord]

I think this was a spectacular event-just watching these speed machines sail was a thrill! I think it is remarkable that they were as close as they were given the fact that they each started with a clean sheet of paper. Given another cycle or two racing would be as close as it ever was with leadbellies.
Please Mr. Ellison stay with multies-at least until a monofoiler beats one! Maybe leave the rules just like they are now?
What do you think?

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"USA":
--first trimaran to win an Americas Cup
--first foil assisted* boat of any kind to win an Americas Cup
*foils that provide vertical lift and reduce wetted surface
--First Deed of Gift Challenger to win the Cup
Once again congratulations to BMW/ORACLE -Team USA. And that goes double for Tom Speer whose contributions to this forum are legendary!

[Zed]

It's sport in the same way drag racing is and should appeal to people on the same level IMO. If you don't get sick of the spectacle well then maybe its for you, a couple of races is enough for me!

Designers might find it more interesting than sailors!

[Guest62110524]

Originally Posted by Zed

It's sport in the same way drag racing is and should appeal to people on the same level IMO. If you don't get sick of the spectacle well then maybe its for you, a couple of races is enough for me!

Designers might find it more interesting than sailors!

sailed since age 13 raced since then, did not watch this event at all,
wot next? who knows, at least Sir Thomas Lipton had some class about him

[jehardiman]

Whatever it is, it will be decided between the GGYC and Mascalzone Latino, or so is reported that Ellison implied that in the press confrence.

PS FWIW, I think it will be monos just based on dock space issues in the bay, unless they buy TI. Alamedia, Hunters Point, and MINSY are all pretty far from the gate.

[Dave Gudeman]

jehardiman, that was pretty cryptic. Can you elaborate? Is there some reason why they couldn't use a marina close to the gate? How much dock space do they need? And what does Texas Instruments (TI) have to do with it?

[Guest62110524]

Originally Posted by jehardiman

Whatever it is, it will be decided between the GGYC and Mascalzone Latino, or so is reported that Ellison implied that in the press confrence.

PS FWIW, I think it will be monos just based on dock space issues in the bay, unless they buy TI. Alamedia, Hunters Point, and MINSY are all pretty far from the gate.

oh bugger, you mean this is goin to go back to the moon? like US of A?
God at least the world followed in Eu Jeez when you hop off the bird in US of A you get the fingureprint treatemnt for days
In Eu you flash you passport
Oh God not another decade in the ferkin wilderness please

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by Zed

Designers might find it more interesting than sailors!

Maybe rig designers, but not yacht designers (at least not this one!)
The "racing" was extremely boring!

[jehardiman]

Originally Posted by Dave Gudeman

jehardiman, that was pretty cryptic. Can you elaborate? Is there some reason why they couldn't use a marina close to the gate? How much dock space do they need? And what does Texas Instruments (TI) have to do with it?

Sorry, since you are unfamiliar with San Francisco Bay and the GGYC, I will explain.

In order to build a large AC venue, you are going to need a lot of waterfront...fairly cheap...which means old industral area generaly. In downtown San Francisco, just south of the Golden Gate, there just really isn't any place of the size you would need without having to buy out multi-Billion dollar properties. Additionally, until you turn the corner off the Embarcadero, the shoreline is not protected unless you build a jetty. FWIW, I'm not sure you could get USA (US-17) into the GGYC/St Francis YC harbor, the opening is not that big. The Presido is ironbound, the GGYC too small, Fort Mason too exposed to the Gate swell, Taking over Aquatic Park would set everyone screaming, Fisherman's Wharf and Pier 39 are icons as well a being too small. That leaves the old piers 35 -3 down to the bay bridge, which are currently were all the ferries dock. This area is very high cost and hard to develop due to the protests from the property owners on the shore side of the Embarcadero who have the view (these are the same people who got the Freeway torn down after the Loma Prieta earthquake and have fought every attempt at redevelopment). So on the south side of the bay, there is really no open waterfront area large enough for development until you get well south down near old Candlestick Park and old Hunters Point Naval Shipyard.

On the North side of the bay the coast is either very steep or mud flats. Sausalito harbor is shallow and Tiburon is too small as well as those two areas being some of the most expensive property in the Bay area.

That leaves Treasure Island (TI) which is right square in the middle of the Bay. TI was a man-made island used for the '39 World's Fair. It was taken over by the Navy during WWII and is still controlled by them due to environmental issues. While the Navy is not adverse to development, the public wrangling and arguments have been verbose since the island was opened for development...there are billions of dollers at stake here wether it becomes a public park or an exclusive gated community.

Further from the Gate there is Richmond/Berkley/Oakland shore on the east side of the Bay. This area is characterized by mudflats extending wellout from the shore. Areas you could use are Brickyard Cove (again prime realestate), Emeryville marina (shallow), Berkley marina, (shallow), the old Kaiser Shipyard (narrow channel), and the old Alameda Naval Air Station (where alot of Mythbusters is filmed) on Alameda Island off Oakland.

Finally, way up to the north of the Bay in Vallejo is the old Mare Island Naval Shipyard (MINSY), and way down south beyond SFO is Foster City and Coyote Point. The rest of the Bay is generally shallow with mudflats extedning well away from shore with depths unsuitable for most large vessels.

[Dave Gudeman]

Originally Posted by jehardiman

Sorry, since you are unfamiliar with San Francisco Bay and the GGYC, I will explain.

Very interesting, thanks. Actually, I am familiar with the SF bay, which is why I was curious. I was thinking of the commercial docks at Pier 39 where the sea lions are, but I didn't realize how much space would be needed. Also there is lots of under-utilized coastline from Pier 39 down to the ballpark, but most of the unused part isn't protected and I wasn't aware of the political issues.

Another political issue would be the SFBCDC, the San Francisco Bay Conservation and Development Commission which has to approve all development in the Bay. The Commission seems to be all Conservation and no Development.

I didn't think of Treasure Island, though. That's actually an interesting idea and with the ongoing political deadlock that is preventing anything from happening there, something like an Americas Cup might be able to get some leverage.

I assume that the Americas Cup has to be in the open water rather than the Bay, right? That is why you are concerned about the distance from the Gate?

[Doug Lord]

Read: http://americascupview.blogspot.com/...-cup-ever.html

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From Scuttlebutt:

STANDING BY FOR 34th AMERICA'S CUP
The monster multihulls might have taken sailing to another stratosphere off
Valencia, but you can bank on a return to monohulls for the 34th America's
Cup. That was the message from victorious BMW Oracle Racing chief executive
Russell Coutts, who earmarked a return to traditional monohulls, with a boat
able to plane downwind likely to replace the now relatively sluggish Version
5 boats used during the last multi-challenger America's Cup in 2007.

"I think we should reach consensus with the rest of the America's Cup
world," Coutts said. "It would be irresponsible for one party to try and
make a decision on behalf of everyone else. You have to put a lot of thought
into these types of decisions because this is a 159-year-old trophy and we
must look after it."

Team owner Larry Ellison promised an independent organising committee
including an impartial jury and umpires, for the next multi-challenger
event, agreeing it was important that there was a level playing field for
all competitors to bring sponsors and fans back to sailing's pinnacle event.


"We're going to try and make decisions along with the rest of the America's
Cup community to do just that, so we can attract sponsorship and funding for
all of the teams that want to participate, not only BMW Oracle and Alinghi,
but also the Chinese team and the South African team and the Swedish team
and the New Zealand team," Ellison said. "If we do our job well and work
closely with them, it should be the most popular America's Cup, the 34th
America's Cup."

When and where America's Cup 34 is sailed remains a moot point. Newport,
Rhode Island seems the frontrunner among a list of potential host cities
that includes Valencia, San Diego and San Francisco, the home of the Golden
Gate Yacht Club under whose flag Oracle races. A 2013 event looks most
likely too with 2011 too soon and 2012 clashing with the London Olympics. --
Full story:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/3332101...-likely-Coutts

[jehardiman]

Originally Posted by Dave Gudeman

Another political issue would be the SFBCDC, the San Francisco Bay Conservation and Development Commission which has to approve all development in the Bay. The Commission seems to be all Conservation and no Development.

Ah yes, I was not going to mention the BCDC, who in the late '80's declared all sailboats to be trash and fill and therfore under thier direct control...

I also heard someone mention Lisbon, so it may come down to the city the offers the most, and that most likely will not be SF.

Edit, the the DoG requires an ocean course "free of headlands" so off the south approach would be the obvious choice.

[Doug Lord]

Here are some monohulll ideas various people have come up with that would be fast, very fast-and possibly good AC candidates if designed for that purpose.

Ideas anyone?

feauring Vlad Murnikov,"sailingkid"(dl), Julian Bethwaite, Sean Langman, Guy Whitehouse/Jo Richards, the DSS guys and others:

[RHough]

Originally Posted by jehardiman

Edit, the the DoG requires an ocean course "free of headlands" so off the south approach would be the obvious choice.

Not quite correct. That requirement can be changed by mutual consent. It is not cast in stone.

The Cup could be held inside the Bay with the consent of both parties.

R

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by RHough

The Cup could be held inside the Bay with the consent of both parties.

R

I've done a bit of sailing on the Bay over the years. Due to the tides it can be a very one-sided course, where a boat behind is not going to have any chance to compete. This is especially true in the only area of the bay that is deep enough for the big monohulls.

Things are better down in the Berkeley Circle area, but it is too shallow for the next generation AC monos.

So, maybe it will have to be multis again.

Regardless, they will have to think about shipping lanes. Wouldn't want another "Secret Love" type protest deciding the AC.

[Doug Lord]

Fom Scuttlebutt:

MANY QUESTIONS REMAIN ON CUP FUTURE
(February 15, 2010) - Golden Gate Yacht Club's America's Cup victory was the
culmination of a partnership with software mogul Larry Ellison that began
when Norbert Bajurin was elected commodore of GGYC 10 years ago and was
flabbergasted to learn that the small organization was saddled with debts
totaling $450,000.

That was quickly remedied when GGYC agreed to sponsor software mogul Larry
Elllison's first America's Cup bid, and Ellison enrolled more than 100 of
his BMW-Oracle team members as club members. Ellison also hired Russell
Coutts away from the Alinghi team after Coutts was fired by Swiss
billionaire Ernesto Bertarelli.

Coutts, who has won the America's Cup four times for his home country,
Switzerland and the U.S, said today he had changed his mind about multihulls
and now thinks they might be a good idea for the next cup. "Only a couple of
months ago, I was pretty strong that it should return to a monohull, but the
racing was pretty spectacular, and maybe we should give multihulls
consideration," he said.
Coutts said he also likes the idea of changing the rules to require that a
specified number of the crew be from the country fielding the boat. In this
cup, the only Americans on USA 17 were tactician John Kostecki and Ellison
-- and Bertarelli was the only Swiss national on Alinghi. USA-17's helmsman
was Australian James Spithill, 30, the youngest cup boat driver ever. --
Detroit Free Press, full story: http://tinyurl.com/y8resup

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Gavin Brady, skipper of Mascalzone Latino interveiwed about the next cup. They are the new Challenger of Record:
http://valenciasailing.blogspot.com/...a-sailing.html

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See this: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ope...ies-31524.html