Americas Cup: whats next?

[tspeer]

Originally Posted by bistros

Can either of these boats be raced without a diesel engine running to provide hydraulic power?...

Until RRS 49-54 were waived by the SNG Notice of Race, USA 17 sailed for months with manual power alone using the soft sail rig. The loads to control the soft rig were much higher than the forces required to control the wing.

Although the wing came along after the conversion to powered hydraulics, it could have been controlled by manual power. Dave Hubbard designed the control system to be quite similar in concept to the controls on his C-class catamaran designs. So the wing would have been eminently suited to manual control.

Also prior to conversion to engine power, manual power was used to hydraulically adjust the shroud lengths to cant the rig.

It is true that after the boat was converted to engine power and the grinders were given their pink slips, USA 17 needed the engine to operate. But it's not true that the boat could not have been raced without engine power. And it was BMW Oracle Racing's preference that the boats use only manual power. But that wasn't the rule set that governed the regatta.

[bistros]

Originally Posted by tspeer

Until RRS 49-54 were waived by the SNG Notice of Race, USA 17 sailed for months with manual power alone using the soft sail rig. The loads to control the soft rig were much higher than the forces required to control the wing.

Although the wing came along after the conversion to powered hydraulics, it could have been controlled by manual power. Dave Hubbard designed the control system to be quite similar in concept to the controls on his C-class catamaran designs. So the wing would have been eminently suited to manual control.

Also prior to conversion to engine power, manual power was used to hydraulically adjust the shroud lengths to cant the rig.

It is true that after the boat was converted to engine power and the grinders were given their pink slips, USA 17 needed the engine to operate. But it's not true that the boat could not have been raced without engine power. And it was BMW Oracle Racing's preference that the boats use only manual power. But that wasn't the rule set that governed the regatta.

Tom:

I certainly appreciate your answer. As I previously posted:

Originally Posted by bistros

Agreed (this was in response to Paul B.'s post), but listening to the interviews with the design team and people on board quickly made us aware that maneuvering speed, speed of adjustments and response to the many data collection / interpretation systems was dramatically better with the powered system versus the manual labor. I don't know if there was any major difference in overall weight of grinders versus engine and fuel - although it would be nice to know.

Would the difference have been enough to affect the outcome of the series? I certainly would not offer an opinion, but suffice it to say they drank the powered Kool Aid instead of just saying no.

Given the result and then thinking how the commentary applied to what we saw happening, a lot of the rock steady, powered-up sailing with the boat fully flying on the leeward ama was probably enabled and helped by the powered systems. Precise and fast response to conditions is aided by precise and fast mechanical systems.

Then again, perhaps I'm wrong but I don't think so.

--
Bill

I would not presume to have any right to even discuss these issues with you. It is wonderful to have someone with facts and hands-on experience present. Thanks.

--
Bill

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

================

I have found out that the use of helium for the purpose stated above on USA is a fact and not an April Fools joke, printing error, or any other kind of mistake.

==============
The helium was in the hulls. See: USA-Technical Details-Helium used From a "whats next?" standpoint it will be interesting to see what an analysis of this system turns up. It could lead to race boats designed with more volume -for more lift. Interesting to ponder the possibilities.......

[peterraymond]

Since we are talking about "America's Cup: what's next?", does anyone hope that there are engines powering the rig next time? I didn't think so.

I'm guessing that Alinghi made that rule in part to disrupt the BOR campaign. Or, maybe they knew that BOR would have to use a BMW engine, while Alinghi could use a lighter snowmobile engine.

I know this is a thread about what we would like to see next in the AC, not a new ideas thread, but tilting the rig was mentioned and that reminded me of something I had been thinking about.

If you run the two shrouds through blocks on the deck and connect them together you let one shroud out as you tighten the other. The connection on the mast follows a circular arc, while the connection between the two shrouds wants to follow an elliptical arc. The result will be that as you pull the mast to windward the leeward shroud will go slack. that's better than the other way around and might be OK on some boats. On boats where slack is not OK, you still have the option of something like a barber-haul to take that slack out.

For tipping the mast I see two options. If you ease the mast to leeward just before a tack and cleat it there, then on the other tack it will already be in the right position. In theory this may not be a perfect idea since, from conservation of energy, the manual labor this saves is taken from the wind and is no longer available to drive the boat forward. Similar to the way roll tacking puts energy into the boat.

Alternately, connecting the shrouds together on the boat at a windward sheeting traveler car would let you pull/winch on just one line after a tack to shift the mast. I suspect that, to save weight, you could do the whole thing with the traveler car and leave out the actual traveler.

I'm sure someone has thought of this before, so I wonder if anyone has comments from experience?

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by peterraymond

I know this is a thread about what we would like to see next in the AC, not a new ideas thread, but tilting the rig was mentioned and that reminded me of something I had been thinking about.

=================
Actually, this is a thread about new(or old) ideas that might wind up in a future AC....

[BobBill]

Chicago!

Crash Dive racing in hard northern chop off Navy Pier. Mono's only invited. Last boat sailing wins.

Long live pot-hole Daly.

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

From Sailing World,April 2010:

"It was a captivating 10-mile drag race-perhaps the first soft-water sailing event worthy of that moniker-and one of the most enduring images from the 33rd match in Valencia,Spain, in February. After a disheartening performance in Race 1, Alinghi's soft-sail catamaran was showing itself to be every bit the upwind match for BMW Oracle Racing's wing-sailed trimaran. In 8 to 10 knots of breeze, both boats' VMG up the course was higher than the speed of the wind blowing down it."

" It wasn't simply the wing.......It was also the team's willingness to completely rebuild the trimaran-very little remained of the original boat-and to test out every possible idea, no matter how crazy. A secretion system designed to reduce skin friction was tested, but not used in the race. However, the idea of using helium to help the center hull lift out of the water was."

Wow! that is simply amazing! If that actually worked ,which apparently it did, then it would help enormously with the boat flying a hull steadily thruout both races-vs the up and down of Alinghi.

UPDATE: this is fact and is one of the most exciting, incredible developments in design and construction of high speed sailboats that I have run into in my 50+ years of studying design and sailing. Monumental is not too strong a word!!

==============
Helium confirmed(again)! USA-Technical Details-Helium used post 69

[Chris Ostlind]

"the sky is rising. The Sky is Rising"

- Chicken Little

[booster]

Doug&Chris
Helium seems like fun. Funny voices aboard as well. However, inhale some Argon at the start to get the right Basso profundo=The lowest male bass voice that emphasizes the low, rich tessitura.
Regards,
Booster

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by booster

...However, inhale some Argon at the start...

Boost, it sounds like you have a connected understanding of the Argon potential. Please expound on same so that we can all get in the game... ;-)

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

Boost, it sounds like you have a connected understanding of the Argon potential. Please expound on same so that we can all get in the game... ;-)

You guys are getting all "Jason and the Golden Fleece" on me. Argonauts.

Given the apparent volume(s) of the contained areas in the hull(s), the actual lift (reducing displacement) can not be all that huge. It seems a statistically insignificant weight reduction and probably not enough to dramatically affect the steady state flying of a hull. It would be interesting to know real numbers and not hype.

I just don't know how anyone can get hyped and claim huge benefits without knowing the data to support it. Perhaps this is like religion, where the fanatically faithful take the literal words they are told as the truth without question.

--
Bill

[Doug Lord]

It would really help to read the available information: the helium was enough to raise the boat 3-4mm and was necessary for the boat to measure in.
Confirmed, so far, by three sources.

USA-Technical Details-Helium used post 69

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

It would really help to read the available information: the helium was enough to raise the boat 3-4mm and was necessary for the boat to measure in.
Confirmed, so far, by three sources.
USA-Technical Details-Helium used post 69

You have no idea what confirmed means.

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Heard from a source on SA who in turn heard from the illustrous "Stingray" that Stingray had talked to Tim Smythe of Core Builders who is reported to have said that there was no helium used.......

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by Paul B

You have no idea what confirmed means.

=============
"stingray"-as I said in the part you didn't quote- is 100% trumped by my sources whose credentials are far better than anyone he quoted.
The boat used helium for measurement purposes-live with it.......

[Chris Ostlind]

What, exactly, has been confirmed?

I don't think you know the answer to that one and yet, here you are, still acting as if the goofiness is the story of the new millenium when it comes to sail boats.

So you say... one guy confirms righting moment. So you say, one guy simply confirms. So you say, another guy simply confirms. Nowhere in there is the tiniest bit of evidence that the helium was actually used for anything of merit when it comes to actually sailing the boat.

Come on, Doug, get some real journalistic chops going here and dig out the factual story. Blabbing this crap around as if it is substantive is the hallmark of the idiots who run the pulp rag, The National Enquirer, which is chock full of innuendo and gossip.

When you get someone to actually put their name on the precise story you have been tossing about and they have the cred to back it up with actual facts, you might have something to talk about. Until then, this nonsense is as functionally connected as the toothless, bearded wino guy in the middle of the desert who says that aliens put a probe in his fanny to see what he was eating.

Making earth-shaking pronouncements about the significance of such a poorly supported minor incident regarding helium is pretty funny under these circumstances. I had no idea that you were a comedy writer in your "spare" time.