America's Cup Disaster

I think its long since lost any significance down here... all the hornets left town and the dogs are off chasing seagulls! FWIW IMO the Cup would raise no more than a yawn in most Aussie sailing clubs these days!

 

I know that Ben could produce some fast conventional boats, some slow fairly conventional boats, some very innovative designs both fast and slow. The design of boats like Apollo, Tampico II, Apollo II/Ginkgo, Volante, Challenge 12 etc don't seem to show any lack of ability to resolve interfaces in other (albiet more conventional) keels. And the fact that later winged keels diverged pretty quickly from the A2 design (IIRC) may indicate that it was far from perfect.

So there honestly seems to be indications either way.

I'm not a religious zealot on this, I'm agnostic - and without more real evidence than I have, I'd have to be an arrogant ****** to think I knew the truth.

 

Hi!
Congrat's to BMW Oracle. Race two was thrilling all the way to the first mark. Interesting matchracing at that speed. The port boat must be pretty sure about passing the starboard boat... Anyway, I belive van Oosanen (from Holland) was involved in the Australia II keel.
Regards,
Booster

 

Dragracing!

 

I agree Booster
there does not seem to be any way around the considerable involvement of the National Aerospace Laboratory in Amsterdam or its chief aerodynamicist, Joop Slooff in designing the Australian boat. Seems pretty obvious once you read even a fraction of the reports now coming to light.

should Australia be stripped of its 1983 victory ?

actually I think Australia should step up to the plate and do the right thing on its own
voluntarily give up its place in the books to the winning team regardless of who they might be.

I used to coach summer-school soccer years ago and if it were my kids I'd teach em something about honor and explain to them why we would not be able to accept a trophy that had been won by cheating.
that and I would suspend the kids who had cheated for a full season

By the same token I personally would not be able to hang on to an award even one from the past that was won by fraud and cheating, but thats just me. I've always felt strongly about the game as much as the victory.

lets all hope for the integrity of the race that Australia steps up and does the right thing

cheers
B

 

I believe the prevailing ethos in the America's cup competition for generations has been the one often succinctly stated as, "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying."

When bending or breaking the rules as much as one can get away with is considered the normal way to play the game, it seems a little over-pious to start claiming the winners from almost thirty years ago should voluntarily give up their win in the name of integrity.

All that would do is hand the trophy over to the second-best cheaters...

 

LMAO Troy
and thats exactly why the Australians need to step up
so that that misconception can be ameliorated

maybe the rules were a tad slanted in the past
but they changed that
I assume so that it would be an honest race
so when someone comes along and makes it a dishonest race
well
the only thing to do is slap em one and take away the tittle of victor

as I was the first to point out that in the distant past the race was virtually rigged just based on biased rules I might also be the first to point out that in the not so distant past the race organizers knew that, and attempted to remedy the situation by making a few rule changes
the intention was for a better race
certainly not one were the best cheater won
the boats were scrutinized with a fine tooth comb to ensure they complied
and an intricate system of protests was devised to ensure all parties felt a fair race had been run.

I think it would be a big leap forward towards the integrity of the sport if Australia would just up and do the right thing
specially since its now so obvious they cheated

as I said if this was the Olympics there would be no question as to what the right thing to do was

why should the America's cup be held to any less of a standard

B

or would you really prefer a race in which the best cheater won

 

But it isn't a misconception. It's the way the game was really played. So there's no point in the winning cheaters stepping aside in favor of the losing cheaters. They are no more obliged to do so, either from a practical or moral viewpoint, than the winners from all the other years.

If people want to change things, the place to start is at the next America's Cup competition--not one from the 1980's, where most of the principals are dead or retired. That makes no more sense than demanding an apology from people living today, for slavery (or any other evil) that existed generations ago.

Since you brought up the Olympics, consider Jim Thorpe. In the name of upholding the integrity of the event, his medals were stripped from him after it was discovered he had played semi-pro baseball. Personally, I think the athletes who refused to accept the medals after they had been taken from Thorpe showed more integrity than the AAU did in taking them....

 

well you are right in that its not a misconception to say the race used to be unfair
but it was unfair because of the rules
not because the rules were not being adhered to

I agree that the best place to start is now but

cheating and then getting caught out lying about it for years like the Australians team have, well, that just speaks for itself or at least it will until some effort is made to set things right.

its as if in a duel someone shot on the 2 count instead of the 3 and without even saying oops

hardly an honorable way to win and certainly deserving of some form of acknowledgment

as I said
if it was the kids I coached I'd take the opportunity to teach then something about sportsmanship
even if it did concern a team from the schools recent history and not the kids on my team
I think it would be a dam good lesson for them to learn

think of it like returning stolen money that you found years after the fact
would you keep it
or return it

 

At the risk of throwing my arm out by pounding away too long here, I'm going to ask one final time: why the Aussies, and why this particular race? To begin with, there seems to be no direct evidence; just a bunch of contradictory statements. And judging by what I've read in these forums, the American side was at least as dishonest, if the allegations against both sides could be proven true.

I think it's absurd to even bring up the subject after all these years. You can't undo what was done with some gesture now, no matter how appealingly PC it might be. And I can't imagine it teaching children any useful lessons, either.

 

not a paste fan but this abt sums it up from a financial point view too

After years of legal wrangling the America' Cup sailing race is poised to get under way this week in Valencia.

Bad weather delayed the start on Monday, but that postponement is as nothing compared to the years of court battles that have taken place since 2007.

The billionaires behind the two teams involved in the 33rd edition of the prestigious race have been exchanging court broadsides for the past 30 months.

And that has helped hole below the water the economic benefits around the race, including sponsorship and broadcasting deals.

'Sideline event'

US software magnate Larry Ellison's BMW Oracle team is challenging the holders, the Alinghi team, which is backed by Italian-born biotechnology tycoon Ernesto Bertarelli.

THE AMERICA'S CUP
First race in 1851 at Isle of Wight
Only four nations have ever won: USA, Australia, New Zealand and Switzerland
Current America's Cup holders: Swiss team Alinghi
If more than one challenger comes forward a contest is held to find the official Cup challenger
There is usually a contest to find a challenger, in 1997 this was called the Louis Vuitton World Series
Last British team to take part in the America's Cup as the official challenger was the Royal Thames Yacht Club in 1964
Oracle, sailing under the colours of San Francisco's Golden Gate Yacht Club, and Alinghi, aligned to the Societe Nautique de Geneve, have been arguing over the rules since the Swiss team beat Team New Zealand in the last edition in Valencia in July 2007.

Oracle and Alinghi have battled for more than two years over who had the right to challenge Alinghi, the kind of boats they could sail in, and the technology to be used in the three-race challenge.

Rough estimates are that each side has spent $200m (£128m) on their campaigns, including hefty lawyers' fees.

So now it looks like not only the billionaire duo - landed with hefty legal bills - but also the America's Cup itself are going to be out of pocket.

"There is an enormous contrast between what happened three years ago and now," says Professor Tom Cannon, from the University of Liverpool Management School.

"Then, it was an enormous event, and it was the third-largest sporting event after the football World Cup and the Olympics in terms of gross economic impact.

"Now we have gone from a sport worth billions to the local economy, yachting in general and in terms of technological development, to a sideline event."

He estimates that the overall economic impact will be one tenth of the 5bn euros ($7bn; £4.4bn) it was worth last time.

'Step back'

The dispute has seen sponsors such as Banco Santander, UBS and Nestle head for the horizon, and the race organising budget has been reduced to just 8m euros from a record 230m euros in 2007.


Alinghi boss Ernesto Bertarelli admits the event has been affected
The event is airing on the internet for the first time, with experts saying the value of the TV media rights is limited because the event could potentially be over in just a handful of days.

The 32nd America's Cup, held in Valencia in 2007, made a profit of 66m euros shared between 12 teams that had taken part in the cup and the qualification series, then known as the Louis Vuitton World Series.

"From the point of view of the event, the fans, the sponsors - yes, we've taken a big step back," Mr Bertarelli admitted recently.

"Let's try to get away from the past two years of troubles and discussions and let's see who has the fastest boat."

'Sponsorship disappeared'

The legal rows have meant that, for the first time since 1988, there has been no preliminary qualification round of races - known in 1997 as the Louis Vuitton World Series - to select the official challenger.


ERNESTO BERTARELLI - HOLDER
Born in Italy in 1965, now Swiss-based
Inherited biotech firm Serono when his father died in 1998
Number 52 on Forbes' annual rich list
Estimated net worth of 8.2bn euros ($11.2bn; £7.22bn)
He has won the last two America's Cups
Consequently, potential challengers from countries - including South Africa, Italy and New Zealand, among others - that competed last time, have been shut out.

As have their boats, and the big name sponsorships they carried last time.

"Two types of sponsorship have disappeared, which has been a massive blow," says Professor Cannon.

"The first kind of sponsors were those backing a boat in the Louis Vuitton qualifying series. The last time round there was interest from China, US, Germany, Spain, and more, all with their own boats and sponsors.

LARRY ELLISON-CHALLENGER
Born in US in 1964
Co-founder and CEO of software firm Oracle Corporation
Number 4 on Forbes' annual rich list
Estimated net worth of 22.5bn euros ($31bn; £19.8bn)
"Also, last time, with the inclusion of the qualifying series, the event lasted for a few months.

"So, if you were, for example, BMW, you could bring clients and dealers from around the world to Valencia for a period of time around the event.

"There is a much smaller window this time for that type of corporate hosting."

'Event undermined'

In addition, Spanish city Valencia calculated that hosting the America's Cup in 2007 brought benefits of 2bn euros to its port, and 3.9bn euros net economic benefit for Valencia.


The economic take for the city of Valencia will be down on 2007
But Professor Cannon says: "The impact of the America's Cup has been reduced now.

"It has not had the tourism, sponsorship, or media spend around it this time."

And the courtroom saga is not finished yet.

In the latest row, Oracle accused Alinghi of breaking nationality rules by using US-made sails.

But Judge Shirley Kornreich of the Supreme Court of the State of New York said she will not hear the case until March.

"The focus is so much on the litigation, and the attention of the non-specialist media this time on the America's Cup has been tiny," says Professor Cannon.

"There is a real risk a 160-year-old event is being undermined.

"It has been reduced from a very major event to a minor one."

 

yup
thats beating a dead horse all right

If I was coaching a team of kids I'd make em give it back not because its going to change the past any
but because its going to change the future

but apparently thats just me

then again I am an American Indian
I suppose I'm expected to be used to this kind of thing by now

woosh
they have a lot of fixing to do about the race
one idea might be to limit the budget
another might be to require boats to compete for the right to sail the previous cup holder
and still another might be to hold each race at a different venue but all in the same country

 

Australia II never went to Holland to get measured.

Lexcen was not a measurer, nor was he Dutch.

I think the measurers included Ken McAlpine, a British measurer and one other.

The British had also been told that wings were legal.

I have no idea what `1980 class ruling you are talking about'.

What twisting was done to let Australia II through? Yes, she would have measured differently if she was heeled and the measurements were still taken vertically, but so would every boat (in fact, every object other than a sphere or cylinder) so you may as well say that America herself was illegal.

 

Boston, you have not given a single bit of definitive evidence.

On the one hand, we have one person saying that he designed the keel, and that this time he's not lying (as he admits he did in the past).

On the other hand, we have a bunch of people saying as they always have, that Ben designed the keel. And yes, Ben's words to Rousmaniere can easily be interpreted in one way, but PhD science students use similar words to describe research projects for which they get the credit. Ben loved hyperbole, he was not a reserved sort of guy.

Ben's words may well make indicate that the Dutch deserve a lot of the credit, but then again that's just one part of a puzzle. I'm sure we could find many more quotes where Ben said that did DID design the keel.

On the other hand, we have a bunch of people saying now what they have consistently said for years - that Ben designed the keel.

So we have one consistent story, from a group of people who have something to lose, and we have one inconsistent story from one or two people who have something to lose. Why favour the inconsistent story over the consistent one?

And afaik neither - not the Aussies, not the Dutch - have ever produced a letter, drawing, graph, instructions to model makers, whatever - that could prove their story. If anyone is going to poke holes at the Aussie side for not producing physical evidence, they must also poke holes at the Dutch side for not producing physical evidence. Surely they must have been allowed to keep some private notes (and one wonders who on the Aussie camp could have read any private diaries etc written by the Dutch to see whether or not they revealed anything about the keel).

So all up, you have not produced any case apart from one guy recanting his earlier lie (by his own account). And others on your side have come out with stuff that just isn't true, like the 'fact' that Oz 2 was shipped to Holland for measuring.

You just haven't come close to proving a case. And while you may well say that I'm biased on nationality grounds, the same bias would apply in the case of those Americans here who argue that Oz 2 was illegal.

 

if you read back through I think you will see the professor at National Aerospace Laboratory in Amsterdam, its chief aerodynamicist, Joop Slooff also coming forward

there is tons of stuff on this and its not being taken lightly at all
these are serious allegations and obviously have significant merit

and the records of the national laboratory corroborate the accounts now coming to light

the only honorable thing to do is to withdraw ones name from the record books and withdraw from the America's cup hall of fame consideration as well *** issue an apology

least thats what I would have the kids do if it were my old team I coached

from
http://www.sail-world.com/europe/Australia-II---John-Rousmaniere-reflects-on-that-winged-keel/62280

the complete article can be viewed at the link provided above

the point is that yes Lexcen was the design supervisor however the a significant part of the design team consisted of persons outside of Australia
a rather sticky issue when you consider that its supposed to be a national event