America's Cup declining?

[Neverbehind]

These last few years, i think that the America's Cup has declined horribly. I mean really, guys selling out racing for other countries, what sense of nationalism can you get from that? Not much. I personally hope that someday they go to a smaller boat, a 12 meter at least! As most people can't relate to or understand a 70-something foot boat. It seems that they might be straying a bit far from most people's reality. Although i don't enjoy it as much as i used to (its alright) at least its televised sailing. Does this upset anyone else?

[safewalrus]

Totally lost it's sense of reality - this is a big boat race for big boats not wierd futuristic styles from outlandish worlds!

It was, once upon a time about a bit of classical style - not sure what it's about now, lost interest!

[gggGuest]

Originally Posted by Neverbehind

I mean really, guys selling out racing for other countries, what sense of nationalism can you get from that?

What you mean unlike the 30s when the US crews where mostly Scandinavian? or 1983 when the US boat was designed by a Dutchman or or or...

[safewalrus]

Exactly

[bhnautika]

America’s cup deed of gift was between yacht clubs not nations.

[Neverbehind]

Maybe so, but it goes deeper beyond that. If a guy crews one america's cup for one team and then gets a load ofcash thrown at him to join another, thats selling out. I can deal with guys sailing for different countries, but if they're just going for money-that upsets me a little. Points well taken everyone.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Neverbehind

I personally hope that someday they go to a smaller boat, a 12 meter at least! As most people can't relate to or understand a 70-something foot boat.

You mean people can't relate to sailing a "70-something foot boat", but can relate to sailing a 67 foot long 12 metre?

[Neverbehind]

True a 12 metre is anywhere between 60-70 feet long-and in that case not much smaller than the current America's Cup class, but it's a classic boat that many sailors can familiarize with. That being said, maybe the new America's Cup class will be a classic in the future and most sailors will be able to familiarize with it, but since the new class's introduction the America's Cup seems to have lost some of its importance (at least for me).

[safewalrus]

Why not put it up for adoption by some car driving cranks in formula 1 (what a bloody waste of time that is - bit like having an intelligent conversation with an Engineer) and then we could get rid of the whole stupid thing!

[mholguin]

Originally Posted by Neverbehind

True a 12 metre is anywhere between 60-70 feet long-and in that case not much smaller than the current America's Cup class, but it's a classic boat that ...

I just can not take the image out of my head of somebody some decades ago, complaining about this new futuristic 12 metres replacing the classic J-boats....

[usa2]

the International Rule (23, 12, 8, 6, 5.5, and 2.4 metres) has been around since a little after 1900.(1906?-Heatherbell, 1st 12 metre)

The Universal Rule ( J, M, N, P, Q, R, and S classes) came into being after WWI IIRC.

so the 12's really werent more futuristic, they were just a hell of a lot cheaper.

The America's Cup was never about nationalism, the NYYC introduced that when they were being beat at their own game. Thats also how DC got support in '87, because he went around to companies and had his public relations people say something along the lines of " Hey you are an American, you must have been pretty upset after we lost the America's Cup. How would you like to help us win it back?"
And of course all the rich companies and their executives had no idea that the America in the title "America's Cup" was the name of a boat, and not the supporting nation behind the contest.

Today's cup is exactly what it always has been, it just isnt disguised or obscured as it used to be.

[TimClark]

Alright I understand your point, but I felt that way before I learned about the real design proccess and why keeping it "classic" wasn't always better. You think this looks futurisitic, think of how the Australians beat us with that revolutionary keel design that changed the world of keelboat racing. If you think about it, the Americas Cup has been a gradual evolution. It's not like they were racing wooden schooners and then immediately jumped to the Carbon IACC Boats. The boats went from wood, to metal, to fiberglass, to carbon. It's tough to realize, I too wish I could go back to the times with the wooden or steel hulled boats, but we can't change that, so we have to deal with it and go with the flow.

[sharpii2]

How many of these Carbon fiber egg shells will still be sailing ten years from now?

That's where I think things are different.

I also don't see much boating product spin off comming off these high lead coffin ships.

On another tack.

The America's Cup Race has a lot more competition for attention these days.

Much unlike the handicap rule fleet races I grew up with (where it could take several days after the race to figure out who won), we now have lots of handicap free, class boat races (like the cup class itself) where the first one accross the line takes the prize.

Also, the sense of national drama is over. For most of its life, the cup resided in the New York Yacht Club trophy case. (reputedly with a note saying something to the effect: "Here sits the America's Cup. Or the head of the person responsible for losing it.") The big suspense was: would the mightiest military/industrial nation on earth hang on to one of its most famous symbols of technological/sporting prowess, or would some upstart nation get to tweek her nose with an unlikely (though probably, in the long run, inevitable) upset.

Well, pardners. That question was answered over a generation ago.

Any more AC questions?

Other than when the first drowning catastrophy is going to happen when one of these over stressed, under built, monsters goes straight to Davy Jones' locker without first going through the formality of ditching her crew.

If the IACC is to be saved from self inflicted extinction, I think it needs the following reforms:

1.) Make the crews really national (and the boat building and design if possible).

2.) Change the rule to make the boats more relevent to the general sailing community. Making them race in anthing from a slight breeze to a full gale would probably help. Aso, putting an absolute limit on draft, sail area, and ballast to displacement ratio could help too.

3.) Allowing really huge boats under these conditions, by making the sail area and draft limits high, to raise the drama quotient. (as well as to insure enough coinage gets tossed)

4.) Allow only one boat per syndicate. (get it right the first time boys.)

5.) Having the actual races in a neutral venue which would be decided by lottery with each competitor being able to cast in its favorite choice.

I know most of these principles were not inherent in the old cup competition, but then the cup itself was not a 'free agent' either.

Things have changed.

Bob

[safewalrus]

Lets face it people the so called America's Cup is a bit of a con! A Yacht club takes a vessel of a completly different design to that of everybody else (it was a fishing boat for Christsake) to a far off land (who just happens to be the Biggest and Bestest in the world at the time!) The aim being to 'rub the big countries nose in it!' We'll race your fishing boats with our fishing boat; of course they bloody won it, was like driving a Formula 1 at a cart race! (different countries different methods)! (the words 'fix' come to mind) they then took the ornate load of rubbish home and put it up in the yacht club with the words 'aint we good' on it!

Don't take this the wrong way but the modern version is something along the lines of Saddam Huesain claiming he won the elections in Iraq, no body else knew there was a contest or particularly cared until afterwards! Most still don't! It was later hi-jacked to suit somebody else's itinerey years later (al Qaeda and 'sammy bin liner')

[TimClark]

Originally Posted by sharpii2

How many of these Carbon fiber egg shells will still be sailing ten years from now?

That's where I think things are different.

I also don't see much boating product spin off comming off these high lead coffin ships.

On another tack.

The America's Cup Race has a lot more competition for attention these days.

Much unlike the handicap rule fleet races I grew up with (where it could take several days after the race to figure out who won), we now have lots of handicap free, class boat races (like the cup class itself) where the first one accross the line takes the prize.

Also, the sense of national drama is over. For most of its life, the cup resided in the New York Yacht Club trophy case. (reputedly with a note saying something to the effect: "Here sits the America's Cup. Or the head of the person responsible for losing it.") The big suspense was: would the mightiest military/industrial nation on earth hang on to one of its most famous symbols of technological/sporting prowess, or would some upstart nation get to tweek her nose with an unlikely (though probably, in the long run, inevitable) upset.

Well, pardners. That question was answered over a generation ago.

Any more AC questions?

Other than when the first drowning catastrophy is going to happen when one of these over stressed, under built, monsters goes straight to Davy Jones' locker without first going through the formality of ditching her crew.

If the IACC is to be saved from self inflicted extinction, I think it needs the following reforms:

1.) Make the crews really national (and the boat building and design if possible).

2.) Change the rule to make the boats more relevent to the general sailing community. Making them race in anthing from a slight breeze to a full gale would probably help. Aso, putting an absolute limit on draft, sail area, and ballast to displacement ratio could help too.

3.) Allowing really huge boats under these conditions, by making the sail area and draft limits high, to raise the drama quotient. (as well as to insure enough coinage gets tossed)

4.) Allow only one boat per syndicate. (get it right the first time boys.)

5.) Having the actual races in a neutral venue which would be decided by lottery with each competitor being able to cast in its favorite choice.

I know most of these principles were not inherent in the old cup competition, but then the cup itself was not a 'free agent' either.

Things have changed.

Bob

I understand the nationality thing. But you have to realize that these "carbon egg shells" won't last long. Look at the VO70's they are all carbon just like the IACC boats, things are beginning to change. It's no longer about how long a boat will last but speed. I see you wouldn't want people dying in the AC races, but if you see the amount of boats around the course that are at the ready to pick up people from a boat that is sinking, I don't think there will be any deaths with this if the sailors are using common sense. I also see how you want sailors being in gail force winds with the huge sail areas that you speak of, that's asking for atleast one death right there. And with the whole thing about only one boat per syndicate, I think that it is allowed, they did it with 12 metres, its so you can practice with another boat, speed tune, make a boat that fixes the flaws in the first boat. It's very hard to make a 70+ foot perfect carbon boat the first time.