America's Cup declining?

[pdwiley]

Actually, I think the Americas cup boats should get even bigger - 200 foot long, multiple wing sail quadramans with a crew of 20, with a mandatory kite sail for the downwind legs - lets make this a real visual event !

With shipping containers randomly scattered about just awash, to add an extra challenge.

Everyone loves a good crash....

PDW

 

[wet feet]

How many world class helmsman, tacticians, crew, designers....are forced to sit on their *** during the prime of their career because they cant find a sponsor willing to throw away 150 million to compete in the Americas Cup ?

This speed at any cost fetish hurts sailing and sailors

It is a Fiasco...

No British, No French, No German, No Brazillian, No Australian, No Spanish.....challengers.

Nobody has a right to earn a living from the America's cup.Or indeed any other field of endeavour.Its not a world championship and nobody has to take part.There are other forms of racing under sail and there are people who do it for pleasure rather than the need to pay the bills by winning.
The little America's cup in C class catamarans is even less well supported and the boats in question are a very small fraction of the cost of an AC72.Why do these under employed professionals not take on the challenge?

 

[oldsailor7]

"or 1983 when the AUS boat was designed by a Dutchman"----:?:

This is one of those conspiracy theories.
It is a slight on the name of Ben Lexen who is no longer with us to defend the conception of his
race wining design.

 

[CT 249]

No ,ifs ands or buts: didn't two IACC leadbellies break in half and sink? Sounds fairly dangerous. And there was a death along the line too, if I remember correctly. That sounds really dangerous.

There were about 97 IACC boats that raced for about 17 years, doing something like 240 races some years through 5 ACs, for one death and one lost boat. The J Class figures were similar; 12s and big cutters were better.

There have been 6 AC72s that have had one race for one death and one lost boat.

A class that had one death per 1200 races (roughly) is the same not the same as a class that has had one death each race so far.

 

[upchurchmr]

We have had this discussion before.

There has not been enough history to treat this as a statistical subject - multihulls in the AC - by your own numbers.

Deaths and accident naturally occur in the early stages of a new development.

Especially when you significantly up the speed and power involved in the event.

Few people get knee injuries while walking, but the numbers go up when you start running or playing contact sports.

 

[oldsailor7]

"Deaths and accident naturally occur in the early stages of a new development."

Yes. Remember the "Golden Years" of heavier than air flight.

 

[Doug Lord]

America's Cup Ascending!

There were about 97 IACC boats that raced for about 17 years, doing something like 240 races some years through 5 ACs, for one death and one lost boat. The J Class figures were similar; 12s and big cutters were better.

There have been 6 AC72s that have had one race for one death and one lost boat.

A class that had one death per 1200 races (roughly) is the same not the same as a class that has had one death each race so far.

====================
And it's totally bogus to judge a new class at this stage in it's development-particularly when it is representative of a major technological shift in design, sailing and speed. This new class represents the most profound advance in sailing technology in the history of the Cup and has the potential, over time, of rewriting all the records.
The AC 72 class is the first America's Cup Class that used a 45' prototype and racing over about 2 years and 9 challengers to help develop itself. Not only did the AC 45 help develop the AC 72's but it served as a test model for a whole new way of racing. I haven't looked it up but I imagine the total number of races sailed by the AC 45's during this development period is rather large( 10 regattas 2011, 12, 13. Approx. 24 races per regatta-for 240 races over the series!) .

 

[michael pierzga]

I see that Louis Vuitton wants its money back.

 

[Earl Boebert]

====================
And it's totally bogus to judge a new class at this stage in it's development-particularly when it is representative of a major technological shift in design, sailing and speed. This new class represents the most profound advance in sailing technology in the history of the Cup and has the potential, over time, of rewriting all the records.

I don't think you'd get many systems safety specialists to agree with an assertion that because something is new and terrific it shouldn't be looked at with a skeptical eye. Even a cursory look at this AC as a system (boats operating in the context of a specific venue) gives cause for concern. Systems safety evaluation deals with leading and lagging indicators. Leading indicators are predictive and deal with such things as safety culture, inspections, and so forth. Lagging indicators are after the fact "heads ups" like accidents and near misses.

The leading indicators for this event are a pretty worrisome, given a management whose concern for safety was manifest very late in the game and in a fashion that could be charitably described as a shambles. The lagging indicators are one pitchpole and one fatality. This is a highly publicized event with consequences for the sport of sailing as a whole and I really don't think it's helpful to say "too soon to tell" in the face of these indicators.

====================
The AC 72 class is the first America's Cup Class that used a 45' prototype and racing over about 2 years and 9 challengers to help develop itself. Not only did the AC 45 help develop the AC 72's but it served as a test model for a whole new way of racing. I haven't looked it up but I imagine the total number of races sailed by the AC 45's during this development period is rather large( 10 regattas 2011, 12, 13. Approx. 24 races per regatta-for 240 races over the series!) .

I hardly see that the AC45 experience is relevant to the issues I described above. An AC72 operates in a completely different performance envelope, carries multiples of the kinetic energy of an AC45, and poses radically different challenges for both crew and control technology. The only data and observations that are relevant to AC72s are those that come from AC72 experience.

Earl

 

[Doug Lord]

America's Cup Ascending!

I don't think you'd get many systems safety specialists to agree with an assertion that because something is new and terrific it shouldn't be looked at with a skeptical eye. Even a cursory look at this AC as a system (boats operating in the context of a specific venue) gives cause for concern. Systems safety evaluation deals with leading and lagging indicators. Leading indicators are predictive and deal with such things as safety culture, inspections, and so forth. Lagging indicators are after the fact "heads ups" like accidents and near misses.

The leading indicators for this event are a pretty worrisome, given a management whose concern for safety was manifest very late in the game and in a fashion that could be charitably described as a shambles. The lagging indicators are one pitchpole and one fatality. This is a highly publicized event with consequences for the sport of sailing as a whole and I really don't think it's helpful to say "too soon to tell" in the face of these indicators.



I hardly see that the AC45 experience is relevant to the issues I described above. An AC72 operates in a completely different performance envelope, carries multiples of the kinetic energy of an AC45, and poses radically different challenges for both crew and control technology. The only data and observations that are relevant to AC72s are those that come from AC72 experience.

Earl

===================
It was and is relevant to the comments made by CT.
---
I'm afraid I don't have the concerns that you have -not because I know the ins and outs of "Systems Safety Evaluation" as you appear to but because these teams have some of the best designers and engineers in the world involved and I'm convinced they have done and are doing a competent job whether you think so or not-especially in light of the probability of you not having enough information to make an accurate assesment of the situation.
There is a lot of misinformed speculation in this Cup as in every Cup-whether or not thats what you're doing or not is an open question-and my confidence
is in the design and engineering management of the Cup and the Teams even given the tragedy that has occurred.
--
And the AC 45, it's first use of hydrofoils in testing, it's first use of the new racing course and systems, the crew training on very fast multihulls in crowded race conditions most certainly has been an important part of the development of the new technology to be used in this new Cup. Ignoring this contribution is ignoring an important element in AC 72 development.

 

[daiquiri]

I've just taken this photo in a marina near Trieste... Il Moro di Venezia, the winner of LV Cup and challenger of America3 (cube) in 1992. You know folks, you can say whatever you want about these "leadbellies", but you can't say they weren't elegant and beautiful. Seeing her in full size is a fantastic experience, the rig is simply majestic.
Cheers

P.S.:
I hope the pic will not be too big, I'm attaching it as it is, directly from my iphone.

 

[Earl Boebert]

===================
It was and is relevant to the comments made by CT.
---
I'm afraid I don't have the concerns that you have -not because I know the ins and outs of "Systems Safety Evaluation" as you appear to but because these teams have some of the best designers and engineers in the world involved and I'm convinced they have done and are doing a competent job whether you think so or not-especially in light of the probability of you not having enough information to make an accurate assesment of the situation.
There is a lot of misinformed speculation in this Cup as in every Cup-whether or not thats what you're doing or not is an open question-and my confidence
is in the design and engineering management of the Cup and the Teams even given the tragedy that has occurred.
--
And the AC 45, it's first use of hydrofoils in testing, it's first use of the new racing course and systems, the crew training on very fast multihulls in crowded race conditions most certainly has been an important part of the development of the new technology to be used in this new Cup. Ignoring this contribution is ignoring an important element in AC 72 development.

My statement was that the publicly available indicators were worrisome. I made no assessment beyond that. I will confess that I am incapable of ignoring a fatality when evaluating the competence of an engineering organization.

Cheers,

Earl

 

[Doug Lord]

My statement was that the publicly available indicators were worrisome. I made no assessment beyond that. I will confess that I am incapable of ignoring a fatality when evaluating the competence of an engineering organization.

Cheers,

Earl

------------------------
I don't blame you but of course you'd have to include Boeing and other airplane manufacurers, most car manufacturer's etc in a negative assessment
of their safety programs for years and years.
I believe these guys are doing a good job with a new "live wire" technology-and I hope these boats- or a refined version of them with at least equal speed- continue in the AC from now on.

 

[Doug Lord]

I've just taken this photo in a marina near Trieste... Il Moro di Venezia, the winner of LV Cup and challenger of America3 (cube) in 1992. You know folks, you can say whatever you want about these "leadbellies", but you can't say they weren't elegant and beautiful. Seeing her in full size is a fantastic experience, the rig is simply majestic.
Cheers

P.S.:
I hope the pic will not be too big, I'm attaching it as it is, directly from my iphone.

=================
Elegant and beautiful is right!

 

[michael pierzga]

That was Gardini, Cayard. 1992. A perfect example of how inbred and insignificant the Americas cup has become . No new blood. Another Fiasco