America's Cup

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Does that mean our team and boat are better than the American...?
Desafío will not get defeated that easy! Go for them boys! Nothing is lost yet!

It means that Spain didn't hire a designer with a poor track record in ACC boats.

I'd like to see Desafio come back to race LR in the final.

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Does that mean our team and boat are better than the American...?
Desafío will not get defeated that easy! Go for them boys! Nothing is lost yet!

------------------
Congratulations, Guillermo! Go Reichel-Pugh, I mean, Desafio!
Next time: a US skipper and a US crew on a Reichel-Pugh design-and a few people like Guillermo to root for them!

[lazeyjack]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Does that mean our team and boat are better than the American...?
Desafío will not get defeated that easy! Go for them boys! Nothing is lost yet!

well I keep telling you that!

[Guillermo]

Thanks, mates! If Desafío wins next thursday I'll have a heart attack!

[lazeyjack]

You know, I feel sorry for Chris Dickson, the NZ press and public hate him, But they have it all wrong, fine family,
Now I want LR and les espaniols to battle the final, , the LR helmsman is one of the GOOD guys, I remember when he lost in AK how tough his boss was. Lets not forget EVER, how these wonderful helmsman have to carry the brunt of all the losses Who are we to judge?

[charmc]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

You know, I feel sorry for Chris Dickson, the NZ press and public hate him, But they have it all wrong, fine family,
Lets not forget EVER, how these wonderful helmsman have to carry the brunt of all the losses Who are we to judge?

Well said, L J,

The Cup has always been a competion between groups of super-wealthy folks, sort of an "Our millionaires can beat your millionaires" thing. The boardroom choices of hull and sail suppliers play a big role. Always, however, and more so now as the ACC has matured and nearly all boats are close in speed, it comes down to match race tactics and the guys on board. They're all experts, and if I were a zillionaire, I'd hire Dickson in a minute. (Chris, the odds of me achieving that staus are just a bit remote at the moment, so don't bother sending me your resume )

Meanwhile, congrats to LR for a great series (they're lucky the winds were light, grrr ), and good luck to Desafio Espanol. While I think highly of the Kiwis, it's good to see the underdogs do well.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by charmc

...now as the ACC has matured and nearly all boats are close in speed, it comes down to match race tactics and the guys on board. ...

Do you really believe that? Do you believe that if the guys from NZ team raced on the French boat (Areva) they would stand a chance against the Spanish boat? Or if the guys from Luna Rossa raced on the China team boat they would have had any chance to beat the Oracle/BMW?

I have seen the Swedish team and Mascalzone latino doing very well and no matter what, being beaten in pure speed.

What Oracle/BMW has done with Chris Dickson was stupid. They should have let him fight the last race. Put all the blame on Dickson and not on the boat is wrong and inappropriate.

[charmc]

Originally Posted by Vega

Do you really believe that? Do you believe that if the guys from NZ team raced on the French boat (Areva) they would stand a chance against the Spanish boat? Or if the guys from Luna Rossa raced on the China team boat they would have had any chance to beat the Oracle/BMW?

I have seen the Swedish team and Mascalzone latino doing very well and no matter what, being beaten in pure speed.

What Oracle/BMW has done with Chris Dickson was stupid. They should have let him fight the last race. Put all the blame on Dickson and not on the boat is wrong and inappropriate.

Vega,

I was a bit imprecise in my choice of words. I meant there is a group of boats close in performance. Just to say no one boat is far and away superior to all others in all conditions.

I agree about Ellison's replacing Dickson. More of a desperation, "Well let's try something different to shake things up" than well thought out. Better to review tactics than to replace the guy who led the effort to the semi's.

[Roly]

It went down as a very ungracious move, but perhaps there was an element of,"lets move beyond the cup and analyse what went on here".

the NZ press and public hate him

I wouldn't put it quite like that LJ.The press's creditability is always taken with a grain of salt. The Dicksons are well respected here even if CD is a little on the obsessive side.

Maybe a portion of the masses,but WTF do they knoww, its doubful they know enough to vote....teehee... that should start somethin.........
pls don't state the obvious.....damn delete do'nt work......

[Stephen Ditmore]

Originally Posted by yades

I personally believe version A being more adequate (they are racing under prevailing wind conditions mainly around 9 to 11 knots. (I will soon post a new thread with lines plan and hydrost. calc for an ACC canoe body in line with the latest trends, just for general discussion/speculation with the community). It could be of somewhat interest (....maybe...).
The basic design criteria of the canoe body being as follows:

- Design Velocity Ratio=1.60 to 1.62
- Prevailing wind speeds 7 to 10,5 kts (force 3 Beauf.)
- Hull Vmax =12,35 kts
- Designed yacht speed =8,5 to 9,5 kts (70 to 78 % Vmax)
- Designed TQ =1,10 to 1,24
- Corresponding FN = 0,33 to 0,37
- Corresponding optimum Cp range (canoe body only) 0,535 to 0,576
(here I'd preferred to mantain the Cp towards 0,535...- version A as
you outlined -)
- BWL/LWL ratio the minimum as possible = 0,20 giving BWL=3,60 m. ca.
- Extreme U transverse hull sections leading towards Cm values in excess of O,90.
- On the above basis Tc (canoe body draft) seems somewhat reasonable
around 0,710 (Tc=(Displ/(LWL*BWL*Cp*Cm))
- From which an approx idea of (WSA) Wetted Surface Area - canoe body
only - seams reasonable being around 55 to 57 sq. m. a very good starting
point indeed.
- Ending with a ratio SA(Sail Area)/WSA = 5,80 ca. !!! ..."star wars"... values
existing only for the ACC Yachts !!!.....

These are the basic concepts behind the hull lines (..to my very personal opinion.....)

I don't know how your BWL/Tc compares with the boats currently racing, but I think going for a narrow, low wetted surface hull is correct. One also faces a choice in designing the keel bulb how much to emphasize wetted surface reduction vs. other design factors.

Why do I say reduce wetted surface and push prismatic? Because I believe the last three America's Cup winners (perhaps the last six) pursued that logic. Remember when Alinghi was trailing TNZ at the top of the final downwind leg in 03? The wind piped up and Alinghi got legs & blew past. I don't have inside knowledge as to what Cp each boat had.... but it's my perception that from Perth forward, the winning boat has had a highish Cp, while keeping wetted surface under control.

Vessel A will beat Vessel B in the target condition.... but not by much. The race is likely to be decided on tactics. Below the target speed an off optimum Cp doesn't matter much. SA/WSA matters far more. Above the target speed, Cp matters A LOT. That's my reasoning.

That we disagree is great.... now we can have a debate.... um.... discussion. Whatever our differences, a big high five. Luna Rossa victoriossa!

[Stephen Ditmore]

Regarding Dickson, wasn't he the beneficiary of just such a move in '92, when NZ substituted him for some kid named Russell Coutts?

[lazeyjack]

Originally Posted by Vega

Do you really believe that? Do you believe that if the guys from NZ team raced on the French boat (Areva) they would stand a chance against the Spanish boat? Or if the guys from Luna Rossa raced on the China team boat they would have had any chance to beat the Oracle/BMW?

I have seen the Swedish team and Mascalzone latino doing very well and no matter what, being beaten in pure speed.

What Oracle/BMW has done with Chris Dickson was stupid. They should have let him fight the last race. Put all the blame on Dickson and not on the boat is wrong and inappropriate.

vega you are right, and the NZ public and press always have hated Dicckson,
this is what i wrote to one reporter after she blamed him
your continual sniping at Chris Dickson makes it palpably obvious that you hate the man,.
Because of this I bypass your reports there are just a few men in the world who can do this job So win or lose take your hat off to him. You sound like a catty bitch, I have no idea if you are or not, but thats the way you present
Stuart Hearn
Qld Au

[lazeyjack]

Originally Posted by Roly

It went down as a very ungracious move, but perhaps there was an element of,"lets move beyond the cup and analyse what went on here".
I wouldn't put it quite like that LJ.The press's creditability is always taken with a grain of salt. The Dicksons are well respected here even if CD is a little on the obsessive side.

Maybe a portion of the masses,but WTF do they knoww, its doubful they know enough to vote....teehee... that should start somethin.........
pls don't state the obvious.....damn delete do'nt work......

did you read that Julie some one or others report in NZHERALD Roly?
i dont say thsi lightly, i lived there most of my life, sailed P,s from early,

[Roly]

L/J
Hmm..
Maybe your right, the great ,"kiwi knocking machine" is alive and well. Miserable bunch of a-holes some of us are.

BTW interesting bow profile comparison.


Alinghi,LR,TNZ,BO

[lazeyjack]

yeppers, she said"he spent 400mill of Ellisons money with nothing to show",
THAT in my book is plain bloody ridiculous Tommy Lipton would shudder in his grave
She insinuates, that all that do not come number one, are Losers!!!