Aftmast rigs???

Hi Yobarnacle ,

Never mind the negative comments. Won't you post a few pictures please, I would really like to see what you have there ?

I have so many modifications on my boat, it needs it's own thread.
I'll post that thread in November.
I didn't want an argument why I shouldn't do some of the things I have, so, publish "fait accompli" is my strategy.

I'll post succeed or failure. :D
With excuses in case of the latter.
 
I repeat again, it is not always a favorable situation for designers to 'go-off-the-beaten-path', either on a financial basis, or a reputation basis. If the current RULES don't allow unusual variations in the rigs (etc), then the boat's owner may suffer being disallowed to race, and possible even suffering a lost of resale value in his vessel. Subsequently the designer may in turn suffer in follow-on commissions to design, etc.


I repeat again, many (probably the vast majority) of claims that rules don't allow unusual variations in rig are just rubbish (like the one you quoted on p1 of this thread). AFAIK there are or were no such rules against mast-aft rigs, full battens or wing masts (for example) in the A Class, B Class, C Class or D Class cats, the 18 and 12 Foot Skiffs, Raters, the Open 60s, windsurfers, 18 Squares, speed trials, most shorthanded racing, Minis, CCA rule, Suicide class, sportboat rules, Rennjolle classes, Jollenkruezer classes, Moths and many more. There was no ban on mast-aft rigs in the RORC, CCA, Metre and IOR rules. The RORC rule, by the way, specifically allowed rotating masts. There is no ban in the enormously popular PHRF, IRC, HN, CBH and PY systems.

So the fact is that the rules have NOT disallowed unusual variations in rig design. Even when the rules were at their tightest there were probably more boats being built to development rules that DID allow wingmasts than were being built to rules that DIDN'T allow wingmasts, and I don't think any rule has ever banned mast-aft rigs.

Sure, some rules have banned some things at some times - but mast-aft rigs, rotating masts etc have always been legal in many classes. There are hundreds of thousands of boats that have been built to rules that allowed mast-aft rigs, full battens, rotating masts, solid forestays etc - how much more opportunity to you need?

It should also be pointed out that many people have tried many radical experiments in these classes. They've tried cat ketches, staysail schooners, headsail-only rigs, masts well aft, lateens, wing masts, wingsails, cutters, kites, schooners.....LOTS of radical experiments have been tried. Even in the days when rules were tightest, establishment Grand-Prix designers like Van de Stadt, Carter and Stephens tried fairly radical or unusual boats.



So its not always a question as to whether a new idea has some viability, but rather will it fit in with the established 'norm' allowed under the rules.

I posted a related question about some ideas that Herreshoff tried introducing to the yachting scene, and was rejected by rating rules:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/hydrodynamics-aerodynamics/sail-aerodynamics-457-46.html#post751483



Two things;

1 - People keep on referring to a few (mainly US) rules as if the rest of the sailing world doesn't matter. The "Francis rig" was not banned by rating rules as such. It was banned by one class, in one type of sailing, in one corner of one country in the world. Lots of other people tried similar rigs in other places and other classes - and lots of them found that it didn't work.

Referring to the R Class Universal Rule ban on Francis's rig as an example of restrictions on progress is like repeating the (completely false) claim that there was a ban on Herreshoff cats that killed multis - it is extremely US-centric and ignores the rest of the world and the many other classes that ran under different rules.

Wingmasts and solid forestays were used in many other classes and abandoned in many of them, not because of rules, but because they normally don't work as well as the alternative.*

2- The rejection was caused by the fact that the rig was exorbitantly expensive, fragile and fell apart. Captain Nat Herreshoff, the man who designed the rating rule, was one of the most innovative designers in history, and he was against Francis' "invention" and predicted it would be banned.

Exactly how do you expect things to work when someone comes out with an idea that is enormously expensive and impractical? Please explain what is so wrong with ensuring that our sport remains popular and relatively affordable.

Personally I think it's nice to look out on waters full of racing boats that people have the time and money to afford. It's a lot more fun than looking out on an empty bay and dead clubs, which is what happens when rules are not introduced to reduce expense. Nat produced the Universal Rule to create boats that were cheaper, longer-lasting and more practical and Francis lauded him for it. If Francis then created a design that was ridiculously expensive and impractical (as it was) then it was perfectly reasonable for it to be banned.

It's always interesting to see the differing attitudes towards rules and cost control that people from different countries show. People from the USA are often very much against restrictions in development classes. People from the UK and Australia are normally quite happy to have restrictions in development classes. And guess what countries have very strong and popular development classes, and what countries have bugger-all development classes?



I really have forgotten whether they did or did not get a lot of time on there vessels to prove or disprove? I do recall that Gary Hoyt was really trying to sell his idea, and it was not happening fast enough to be financially viable at the time. So he shelved it and went on to other things.

Multiple headsail rigs with the mast aft of the mid-point of the rig have been in yachting since the 1700s - how many more hundreds of years do you need to prove them? :D Time isn't an issue, since we have been moving AWAY from multiple headsails for most racing for centuries.

Most sailors have been moving to larger mains and fewer headsails throughout most of that period because they work better. As repeatedly noted, multiple-headsail rigs were commonplace in some conditions as late as the early '70s in conventional ocean racing and they are completely accepted today in situations where they work well (Volvo, Open 60s, etc), so it's not some amazing new technological and conceptual leap that is required. If they work better, people use them - it's simple. It's just that they do not work "better" in many situations.

If we look at many other novel rigs, we see that they were almost instantly adopted by racing sailors. As soon as the rig won, they fell over themselves to pick it up. Look at Illingworth and the masthead rig, the C Class guys with the wingmast, skiffies with the modern assymetric, windsurfer sailors with the camber inducer.... all you need to do is win a race or two (or even show potential) and be remotely practical, and lots of people will get into it.




That is an interesting question, and I have written Andrea Vallicelli an email asking of his interpretation of this aero question I posted over here about the double headsail rigs:
Slots Between Sails with Increasing Mast Height

If he should answer, I will have to follow up with that question you pose.

It would be interesting to hear his answer.

However, to repeat - the point is that surely we should not be hypocrites. If we are negative about conventional rigs (as is so often the case here) then only a hypocrite would say we can't be negative about unusual rigs too. If we have to be positive about mast-aft rigs, then we also have to be positive about conventional rigs and the rules. Supporters of "unusual" rigs can't have it both ways. They can't just imply that many thousands of sailors are ****** who choose less efficient rigs, and then get defensive when their own claims are examined.

* as noted earlier, I own two wingmasted boats so I know they work in many craft - it's just that there also equally good reasons why they don't work as well in other types.
 
Negative and positive would best be discussed in the electrolysis of battery thread. Rigging is a matter of personal style and aesthetic values mixed with known best methods for setting up for sailing. Hypocrisy is a word not usually seen in a thread about sails. What purpose can it possibly serve here?
 
Hoyte, you're dead right that rigging is a matter of personal style and values. But people here have made some fairly sweeping claims about this rig (and sneered at those who prefer other rigs) and in that case, surely in a forum like this they should engage in discussion about the testing that underlies those claims, instead of saying that "negative' comments should be ignored.
 
CT249, You are such a patient man.

I enjoy reading your articulate and considered posts.
 
Being neither negative nor positive, I shall remain neutral.



Two atoms are walking down the street one day, and one of them says to the other:

"Hey, wait up a second. I think I lost an electron"

The first atom replied, "Are you sure?"

The second atom exclaimed, "Yes, I'm positive!"

First atom negatively replied, "I think I found it."

Being on the street and not in the swimming pool, I suspect their bond was more likely a covalent one than an ionic one.

http://www.chemistrygeek.com/g8.htm
 
... and that when they have rejected headsail-only rigs they did it because they don't actually go faster?

Hi CT249, Might I suggest that you go back and look thru that test results paper that I posted, It appears as though the all-headsail rigs did rather well in that testing. And it was some pretty thorough testing involving VPP and RANS



INTERESTING RESULTS

I'm going to summarize some of this paper here in case it should be taken down, or disappear from the web, as many things tend to do nowadays.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/262797205_Wind_tunnel_and_CFD_investigation_of_unconventional_rigs

ABSTRACT
This paper presents research activities carried out by the authors to investigate aerodynamic behavior of several unconventional sailplans,... in comparison to the sloop traditional solution. In particular an 'A-shaped' mast placed in the stern area of the yacht has been considered in single-jib and double-jib configurations. Wind Tunnel tests and performance prediction analyses have been performed in order to compare different configurations.

...a most interesting solution, including major potential development, appears to be the one configured on an “A” shaped mast, placed in the stern area of the yacht. In this way, what was the mainsail is now transformed into another jib (in the double jibs configuration) or even completely removed (single jib configuration).


The traditional sloop yacht rig used as a reference is a Comet 51’a Vallicelli Yacht Design & Co 51 feet IMS cruiser-racer sailing yacht, winner of 2007 IMS Italian Championship.


From a pure aerodynamic point of view the relative performance of different rigs can be compared by comparing the driving force at similar apparent wind angles and heeling moment. From these figures unconventional rigs seem to perform better than the standard sloop configuration.

As can be seen at closer AWA unconventional solutions are better than the standard sloop and in particular the two jib configuration with overlap seems to be able to produce higher driving force (at dynamic pressure =1) at the same heeling moment.



In order to gain further understanding of the sailplans aerodynamic behavior numerical simulations have been carried out using RANS method.

For each design scenario performance prediction have been carried out in 4-20 Knots true wind speed. Figure 24 shows a comparison in terms of optimal VMG in close hauled condition between standard sloop and
unconventional rig with reference to both single and double jib configurations. In particular figure 24 refers to full scale case with the same sails tested in the scaled model.

The results obtained confirm that the double jib configuration performance is better than the standard sloop up to 10 knots TWS, while the single jib performance is pretty similar to sloop configuration.

In windier conditions all the unconventional rig solution are faster and in particular the double jib with overlap gives the best performance.


CONCLUSIONS
In the present paper an unconventional rig has been investigated in comparison with a standard sloop rig by means of wind tunnel tests. The traditional sloop yacht rig used as a reference is a Comet 51’a Vallicelli Yacht Design & Co 51 feet IMS cruiser-racer. Several unconventional configurations have been tested, all characterised by an “A” shaped stern mast without mainsail in single-jib and double-jib configurations. Aerodynamic data available from experiments have been used to perform some performance prediction at full scale by means of a VPP code.

Both experimental tests and VPP calculation show that the double jib
configuration with overlap gives the best performance and also the same configuration without overlap gives better results in comparison with the standard sloop solution.


Numerical investigation have been carried out using RANS simulation in order to better understand the aerodynamic differences resulting from the experimental tests. Simulation results put in evidence a slat effect in the overlapping jibs configuration leading to more attached flow on the aft jib allowing for an higher pressure drop on the sailplan.


And please note that I am not trying to make the case that my mast-aft design is going to be that much better than the convention rigs. I'm just claiming that it is not going to be significantly less in performance than a 'conventional rig', and concurrently more user friendly to the aging cruiser than a big full battened mainsail rig,...... all 3 sails roller furl, and it provides for the balance and lower CE of a ketch rig,....a single-masted ketch
 
And please note that I am not trying to make the case that my mast-aft design is going to be that much better than the convention rigs. I'm just claiming that it is not going to be significantly less in performance than a 'conventional rig', and concurrently more user friendly to the aging cruiser than a big full battened mainsail rig,...... all 3 sails roller furl, and it provides for the balance and lower CE of a ketch rig,....a single-masted ketch

Brian. I am an ageing cruiser. I find my large fully battened mainsail very useful and easy to handle.
Its great when motorsailing as it stabilizers the boat and still provides useful drive when pointing very high ( much higher than one can sail only) when negotiating narrow channels or following leads as an examples. A headsail would be useless in this situation.

It still provides some drive when the wind dies and the slop remains that shakes the stuffing out of the headsails rendering them next to useless.

Roller reefing the headsails is a pain in strong wind, with the flogging sheets beating the crap out of the boat and anyone in the way.
The main is easily controlled and reefed with a sensible set up.

Have you done much offshore sailing?

I would have thought you attentions would be better directed to ridding yourself of those pesky headsails.
 
The simplistic head sail.

Another reason I love an aft mast stay sail rig. Is the ability to easily modify any sail with a simple Kenmore sewing machine.
In a pinch for cash. Simply find any cheap main sail. Put some hanks on it. Then recut the foot.
Believe it of not. I can sail upwind with a main sail from a Santana 21. That has hanks wipped too the bolt rope. On my inner stay sail.

I would hate to be in the middle of the Pacific on my budget with a sail that can not be easily repaired or tailor made from what's locally available.
 
25 mph gust

Santana 21 bolt rope main sail. Rigged on the inner stay.
 

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WARNING - LONG POST

Thanks Barra and WP! :-)

Mark, Yo and others - can I just point out that nothing I have written is intended to dismiss the mast-aft rig, which obviously works well for some people. My intentions are not to attack any rig or sailor, but to defend other rigs and sailors from attacks upon them.

Brian; I'm not an aerodynamics expert and therefore not qualified to comment on the technical merits of the Milan study. However, since I'm stuck at home with a cough, I may as well make some remarks;

1 - the authors do not seem to be balanced in their assessment of each rig in some ways. For example they say that in the conventional rig"the tuning techniques required on the mast, the boom, the stays and the sails, need, to be effective, expensive equipment like additional tracks, sheets, vangs and the correspondent purchases;"

This seems to be biased. The two-jib setup also has a boom, it has as many sheets as a conventional mast. There seems to be no reason why their boomed staysail would not need a vang (all else being equal) and their genoa would have to be barber-hauled out or have its excess twist controlled in some other way when sheets are eased. IMHO their low-clew genoa would be fairly ineffective downwind because of twist, but that seems to be ignored. Their single-headsail rig has a long boom that would require some sort of vang and pose other problems - again these seem to be ignored in an effort to praise one rig and damn the other. They do more of the same, but I won't go into detail.

* They show the conventional rig as being tested when it is trimmed incorrectly, with a straight mast and mainsail reefed down to the same height as the #3 jib, which was not flattened as it really would be. Therefore the conventional rig was not being tested at its optimum performance.

* They ignore the important effects of headstay sag (which makes headsails harder to depower) and the ease of using mast bend to depower a main, which appears to be unfair to the conventional rig.

* There was no report on testing at wider apparent wind angles.

For these reasons, there is probably reason to doubt whether the study was fair.


2 - Tests are great, but the real world has shown many tests have been shown to be wrong in the past (see AstroSail for example, or the huge fracas about the 3/4 aft measurement under IMS).

These tests results appear to say that speed will increase around half a knot under the twin headsail rig, which is an ENORMOUS speed jump. If I recall correctly, this is a performance advantage roughly in the order of adding a canting keel. It's the equivalent of making the whole boat bigger by about 7 feet.

It beggars belief that the many, many thousands of sailors who have been involved in the sport over the years would have missed what would have been the biggest jump in mono performance in many decades. When races are won by a fraction of one percent, no one can miss an increase of about 7%. That's like having a Farr Mumm 30 that can just about beat the world's best Farr 40 OD around the course each week, or a J/24 beating a top Etchell or J/29 across the line every time they race.

For about a century, sailors have been REDUCING the number of headsails they use in many yacht classes. They have also spent decades testing sails and pulling them up and down while racing and experimenting. Thousands of people have lots of experience with staysails and cutter rigs, and (all else being equal) just about all of them have thrown them away because they have found them slower in reality. People note what happens to boatspeed when they set and drop sails!

If this study was correct, all the pros who have designed rigs and played with them are ****** who have not been smart enough to look at their speedo while they are out there testing sails and racing. Apparently this amazing stupidity has been existing since, for example, the J Class and 23 Metres went from three headsails to one.

How could it be that people went to all the expense of developing single-headsail J Class rigs if the cutters they were racing against were basically faster? If twin headsails and no main make a boat 7% faster then why did the boats with one headsail beat the cutters? If these claims were correct, then decades ago the old 6 Metres with cutter rigs would have beaten the latest 8 Metres with sloop rigs - can anyone seriously claim that no one would have noticed such an bizarre reduction in speed from the newer and bigger boats? Was there some sort of mass delusion going from Keil to Cowes and all the way to Auckland, which stopped people noticing that their new rigs were dramatically slower than the old ones? Has this delusion continued to the present day, and stopped people who use cutter rigs in some classes from using them in other classes?

Every scientist I know of (and I'm married to one) would probably say that in a situation like this, where there has been years of real-life experience, such reality trumps experiments - and for decades reality has shown that cutters are NOT faster (all else being roughly equal) and therefore this test must not be accurate.

EDITED TO CONDENSE
 
Another reason I love an aft mast stay sail rig. Is the ability to easily modify any sail with a simple Kenmore sewing machine.
In a pinch for cash. Simply find any cheap main sail. Put some hanks on it. Then recut the foot.
Believe it of not. I can sail upwind with a main sail from a Santana 21. That has hanks wipped too the bolt rope. On my inner stay sail.

I would hate to be in the middle of the Pacific on my budget with a sail that can not be easily repaired or tailor made from what's locally available.

It's great if you enjoy your rig. I don't think anyone has a problem believing you can modify a main and use it as a staysail that will take you upwind.

But a bermudan sloop rig sail can be very easily repaired. Stickyback, some sail thread and a sailmaker's palm can work wonders.

Bermudan rigs can also be extremely cheap, if you get one that allows you to use the sails from a popular racing class. If you ask at the right time (like when the owner's wife is within earshot and wants the garage cleaned out of beautifully-kept sails that have been used 30 times) you can get them for free! :D
 
CT249.
I only took exception to what appeared to be your opinion, that only racing would determine a rigs suitability/superiority amongst the techs. Hence, my egotistical remark, I only needed to convince myself. :D

There have been many rigs tried and many abandoned, for various reasons.

Legend says Columbus changed the rigs on the two smallest of his fleet of three, from caravel lateena to caravel redonda (square sails), because they ( Pinta and Nina) were out sailing the larger Santa Maria. Was it more feasible financially to square rig the two smaller lateen vessels than to improve the larger vessel with the lateen rig? Or was he concerned too much speed was dangerous? Or, were the square sails more self tending? Somebody please ask him his reasoning, when next they meet him. :D

At any rate, the lateen rig all but disappeared from the seas, while square riggers dominated for centuries after Columbus. Why?
 
Brian. I am an ageing cruiser. I find my large fully battened mainsail very useful and easy to handle.
Its great when motorsailing as it stabilizers the boat and still provides useful drive when pointing very high ( much higher than one can sail only) when negotiating narrow channels or following leads as an examples. A headsail would be useless in this situation.

It still provides some drive when the wind dies and the slop remains that shakes the stuffing out of the headsails rendering them next to useless.

Roller reefing the headsails is a pain in strong wind, with the flogging sheets beating the crap out of the boat and anyone in the way.
The main is easily controlled and reefed with a sensible set up.
There are pluses and minus for mainsails galore. But I would direct you to a couple of forum discussions where you might find a significant number of sailors that have 'abandoned' their mainsails for various reasons. I'm sure there are many other such threads, but I can't find them at the moment on short notice:

Main-less Rig
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/main-less-rig-21274.html

Furling Mainsail or Not
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f116/furling-mainsail-or-not-63150.html

Don't Use the Main
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/dont-use-the-main-115978.html

Death of the Ketch
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/the-death-of-the-ketch-85028.html

Square-top Mains
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/square-top-mains-9668.html

Loose-footed Mains
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/loose-footed-mains-2595.html


Most CRUISERS do not go out looking for windward sailing, but rather try to pick and choose reaching or downwind conditions. The full battened mainsail can often find itself pinned up against the spreaders or other rigging (ie, the shrouds on multihulls, the lazy jacks, etc)), making it more difficult to reef that sail down as the wind conditions gather strengh. And the skipper may delay his reefing as he hopes the wind will diminish and he won't have to wrestle with lowering and re-raising that mainsail (and turning upwind to do so).

For safety reasons I might like to have a lower AR rig with its lower CE. Look at the difference in mast height (for the same sail area sloop) of my rig. And lower AR sails have proven their worth in reaching and downwind sailing.

Those are a few of the reasons that I sought out a ketch-style rig, and I happen to have found a way to do it without the addition of a second mast & its associate rigging......a single-masted ketch.

As far as motorsailing with your mainsail up I might well be able to do that with just my central mainstaysail up.
 

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