Aftmast rigs???

[bearflag]

Chris White Atlantic 47, MastFoil

Pretty cool design, from Chris White.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Mick@itc
How very interesting. The design I am working on is a polycore aft mast design. I believe Lyra is polycore too. I need to share a cup of coffee with Ian!

The more I look at the aft mast set-up the more sense it makes for a cruiser.

Mick

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Hey Mick, would a nice Polycore 40 footer in kit form do you?

I'm working on a modification of the Solitary Island 12m design for an aft-mast rig. I think its going to work out real nice. I think this vessel design has lots of potential. I'll post some sketches soon.

Solitary Island 12m

Here are a few rough sketches for a general idea....(NOTE: forestays are not correct, backstays aren't there, etc...just rough idea)

[Bruce Woods]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Here are a few rough sketches for a general idea....(NOTE: forestays are not correct, backstays aren't there, etc...just rough idea)

Ok Brian, I've lurked here for a while wondering what the attraction is too the aft mast no main sail rig.

Obviously you have many thousands of blue water miles up with one of these rig types , and have seen its many virtues in action.

Can you post some pictures of your boat, maybe in exotic locations, so that we can all see it in action on different points of sail, or direct me to some pictures already posted of your boat.

As a long time cruiser I can see the virtues of the Prout style rig with a fully battened main. A fully battened main is very close winded when motor sailing and doesn't flog when luffed, and most importantly doesn't get fuller in the puffs through forestay sag. I have found large headsails on roller furlers to be very inefficient when partially furled irrespective of how much money one throws at luff foam etc. The flogging sheets of a headsail can do a fair bit of damage when released to furl. The small main, single line reefing and full length battens , contrary to what is written on wikipedia is a very manageable sail.

Surely the extremes of cruising rigs , either no main and large headsails, or large main and no headsails is exactly that, extreme. For the life of me I can not see the positives out weighing the negatives for either extreme. Surely the right mix for cruising lies in the middle somewhere.

With no fully battened main the motorsailer is missing out on the stabilizing effect and/or drive from sail power over probably around 100 to 120 degees of the compass rose going to windward depending on wind strength, and around 20 degrees each side of dead square unless using a pole and preventers down wind. Having read the anti boom garbage on wikipedia I can't believe you recomend a pole and preventers for your headsail rig, or do you?
Regards

[Spiv]

Originally Posted by Bruce Woods

Having read the anti boom garbage on wikipedia I can't believe you recomend a pole and preventers for your headsail rig, or do you?
Regards

Hi Bruce, I have not read the Wikipedia article you refer to (nor have intention to) but you can read a lot of interesting and thought provoking ideas here: Main-less rig

[brian eiland]

I just wanted to add a link to this discussion that could offer some interesting possibilities for the roller furling mizzen sail on my aftmast design

Square top mains?

[brian eiland]

I was looking thru some older material on one of my computers and found this photo that someone sent to me in the past. It was their experiment with my rig design.

But I can't find the correspondence that came with that photo? Any help out there to ID this project?? ....I think it was a steel monohull

[Silver Raven]

Originally Posted by Bruce Woods

Ok Brian, I've lurked here for a while wondering what the attraction is too the aft mast no main sail rig.

Obviously you have many thousands of blue water miles up with one of these rig types , and have seen its many virtues in action.

Can you post some pictures of your boat, maybe in exotic locations, so that we can all see it in action on different points of sail, or direct me to some pictures already posted of your boat.

As a long time cruiser I can see the virtues of the Prout style rig with a fully battened main. A fully battened main is very close winded when motor sailing and doesn't flog when luffed, and most importantly doesn't get fuller in the puffs through forestay sag. I have found large headsails on roller furlers to be very inefficient when partially furled irrespective of how much money one throws at luff foam etc. The flogging sheets of a headsail can do a fair bit of damage when released to furl. The small main, single line reefing and full length battens , contrary to what is written on wikipedia is a very manageable sail.

Surely the extremes of cruising rigs , either no main and large headsails, or large main and no headsails is exactly that, extreme. For the life of me I can not see the positives out weighing the negatives for either extreme. Surely the right mix for cruising lies in the middle somewhere.

With no fully battened main the motorsailer is missing out on the stabilizing effect and/or drive from sail power over probably around 100 to 120 degees of the compass rose going to windward depending on wind strength, and around 20 degrees each side of dead square unless using a pole and preventers down wind. Having read the anti boom garbage on wikipedia I can't believe you recomend a pole and preventers for your headsail rig, or do you?
Regards

G'day cobber. In all your searching - Bruce - have you come across anyone who has costed these rig 'improvements'?

Brian that pic - is not good advertising - looks like a junk boat in a junk slip-yard. No offence ment!

Notice the Atlantic 47 - that someone says is 'nice' - yeah RIGHT but has anyone costed it & can they show that 'said' cost is justified. They all look extremely expensive to me & rather 'over' complicated.

I thought the idea of cruising was to 'keep it super simple' & cost effective & easy to use - or have I missed something here?

What we need in here it a qualified sailmaker - to properly explain the cost effectiveness of all the various sail combinations over a 15 year period of time for the general cruising people. Yes? - No? Ideas people? Ciao, james

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Silver Raven

..Brian that pic - is not good advertising - looks like a junk boat in a junk slip-yard. No offence ment!

Agreed, but it is the only one I had. I'm trying to keep track of all such experiments.

Notice the Atlantic 47 - that someone says is 'nice' - yeah RIGHT but has anyone costed it & can they show that 'said' cost is justified. They all look extremely expensive to me & rather 'over' complicated.

I assume you are referring to his new MastFoil rig concept. Advancements in the 'state of the art' may not all come at lesser cost,...at least particularly in their initial stages. Just be glad there are folks willing to experiment.

I thought the idea of cruising was to 'keep it super simple' & cost effective & easy to use - or have I missed something here?

Simply and easy to use are lofty goals for sure. These attributes may not all come at reduced cost. Certainly in-boom furling, and in-mast furling do not come at reduced cost, but many sailors chose them for their convenence.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by bearflag

Chris White Atlantic 47, MastFoil

Pretty cool design, from Chris White.

....nicer organization of their intial video trials...

http://chriswhitedesigns.smugmug.com...2128&k=spKxqLj

The prototype vessel certainly appears to have an 'aftmast' attitude/aspect to it.

[Yobarnacle]

subscribing

[brian eiland]

Granted it is only a sail-assisted trawler/power cat, but as I have become the documentor of such sail plans I felt the need to post it. And particularly because I have also been an avid promotor of the motorsailer type vessel in the multihull form.

This vessel definitely looks like a very comfortable live-aboard motorsailer.
http://bamba-yachts.com//index.php

[Spiv]

Sure looks comfortable!
Looks like she has just the one (largish) headsail.
If only I could sell my square top mainsail....

[brian eiland]

....this is the type of letter I get on occassion that keeps me promoting this idea.

Have you ever had your beautiful rig computerized tested? It seems to make so much sense and is absolutely elegant physically. I would think its ease of use, too, would appeal to older cruising sailors.
Warmest regards,
Eric

Originally Posted by Brian's reply

Haven't had the client yet that would go for the computerized load analysis, but here is a vector analysis I presented on this extended discussion of the rig,....and not one of the naysayers came out to challenge it

Rigging Force Review

Origination and Justification for this Rig

Hong Kong 40 powersailer

I read all of it. Much of the tech way over my head,though. I'm quite amazed that this rig has not caught on with some client. As earlier mentioned, it's simply one of the most visually elegant I've ever seen.

For five years in NY, I owned and sailed Hull #58 of the Triton,the first production plastic boat. She was one of the rare oneswhich was yawl rigged and was a joy in heavy weather dropping the main and just sailing with the jib and jigger. Was very easy to balance. Thus I love the idea of your one mast ketch rig. Should I ever have the wherewithal, I shall definitely become that exploratory client.
Eric