Aftmast rigs???

[masalai]

35 degrees apparent... More info on my build thread don't seek to pirate this thread...

[Fanie]

After buggering around with my little tri and it's TRUE aft mast and jib like main sail, I can say that there is a lot more that has to be learnt from this setup. Although it works well and is easy to handle (with some help from a winch of course on bigger sails) I don't think I have it all figgured out yet.

For instance, I've added a boom to keep the foot of the sail more streight, and it does make the sail easier to control but then if I had a winch on an auto tacker it may have been just as easy. I'm not convinced the boom made enough of a difference to say you have to have one. I don't like booms, the wind always seem to change when you're not looking

The shape of the sail was also not experimented with enough, being of the poor workers class I cannot afford to make up different shapes to compare.

I would have loved to put the same but larger setup on a slightly bigger sailing cat - one on each hull and play with that. It would make for a very large sail combined and just may become competitive for speed as well as ease of handling, which this sail offers for sure.

BOLD experimentation

I have people charging up to me or following me to see what the contraption is. Quite cute, you get to smile at the wives and the girlfriends and the guys think you are very friendly


I plan to do away with the little trimaran soon, so unless any of you can come up with something else that needs testing or experimenting with, I am going to retire her to the lounge.

Speak now or forever hold your piece.

[RHP]

Difficult to type and hold my piece.....

If you dont like a boom on what is mean to be a relaxed rig why not go for a wishbone setup? It'll maintain the sail's shape and add rigidity.

Typing quicker now as my assistant it holding my piece for me....

[Fanie]

Hi RHP,

The standalone masts's sail works basically the same as the wishbone's.

Difficult to type and hold my piece.....

I see you get a couple of characters in in between swapping hands, fortunately you need only one hand with your's

The little tri is gone. A guy came here and said he wanted it and he left with it.

[Chris249]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

BOLD experimentation...something they're affraid of...too conservative

Brian, would you mind not being so arrogant and insulting?

Plenty of other people have tried 'bold experiments' without throwing around insults. Some have even done more with their 'bold experiments' than writing about them on the web, without throwing around insults.

Some people choose more conservative craft because it happens to suit the rest of their life. Some people with quite conservative craft are leading the way in other areas of their life (like the professions or sciences.

Others simply are not convinced by the supposed efficacy of the aft-mast rig (a viewpoint that can be backed by the years of experiments with such sails) or are fascinated by other developments that create faster or more refined rigs.

It may make you feel good to insult others for daring to have different tastes, but it doesn't necessarily make you look good.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Chris249

Brian, would you mind not being so arrogant and insulting?

Plenty of other people have tried 'bold experiments' without throwing around insults. Some have even done more with their 'bold experiments' than writing about them on the web, without throwing around insults.

I don't think you've been on this forum long enough to understand where I am coming from...or lets say where I have been.

I was not trying to insult anyone. I grew up with the start of the whole multihull beginnings, and I was very much involved with the marketing of these vessels for many years. I experienced directly the many hurtles we had convincing the monohull sailors that multihull vessels were viable sailing craft. It took years for to happen.

Even something as simply as a fully-battened mainsail was criticized, let alone some of the other innovations that came from this 'renegade group of sailors'.

And guess which nationality of sailors were the most conservative in my findings...the Americans, of which I am one....but they would never believe that of themselves.


BTW, that was a pretty bold experiment by Maltese Falcon. There were a lot of naysayers to that project.

[Manie B]

Chris249 you are an idiot

Brian, would you mind not being so arrogant and insulting?

READ THE FLIPPEN WHOLE THREAD PROPERLY

Brian was NEVER insulting - YOU ARE




idiot

[masalai]

Wow Manie, for you to boil he must really deserve the title or whatever:

[Chris249]

I apologise for the use of the word 'arrogance', Brian, but it certainly seemed that in using 'afraid' and 'too conservative' you were trying to insult someone. Accusing someone one being too conservative and cowardly is not exactly showering them with compliments.

I still can't see why in the world someone deserves to be abused (and saying that they are scared is certainly an insult) merely because they ask an innocent question about a rig.

My family was involved in early multis too, and in early windsurfers. Sure, some people criticised them - so what, many windsurfers and multi sailors criticised conventional craft and ignored the issues with the new breeds. Those who dish it out should also take it.

Much of the early pro-multi promotion was overblown and surely people had the legitimate right to become annoyed by such claims, which often cast existing craft in a bad light. If one is going to criticise the boats people own (as innovators often do) surely one cannot complain when one is criticised in return.

BTW as I'm sure you'd know, the fully-battened mainsail was not an innovation from a group of catamaran sailors but an old idea, regularly used in mono classes in some parts of the world for decades before multis became popular. It was, for example, used in the '20s on the German lake dinghies and in the 1930s in International Canoes. The cat pioneer Austin Farrar has written that his Little America's Cup winning full-batten mainsails were inspired by mono and canoe sails, which underlines the fact that cats did not introduce them.

The reason that many people rejected full battens was NOT simply blind conservatism, but because for many boats full battens did not (and do not) work as well in some situations. I've currently got 18 fully-battened mains around the house and shed and we've had full battened boats in the family for three generations so I'm not bigoted, but for many craft they are not the best way and surely people must be allowed to say that without being criticised.

I apologise if I over-reacted, but your comment made it appear that any one who asked about a mast-mast rig (and again, we've had them in the family) was a coward and a luddite, and that it simply not the case.

PS re "I don't think you've been on this forum long enough to understand where I am coming from...or lets say where I have been."

There's only 11 months difference in our joining dates (although I've had slight tag changes in that time).

[Earl Boebert]

A newly constructed model yacht with same is discussed at:

http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/show...5471-Delta-rig

The boat is an RG65; class rules are (basically) 65cm LOA, 110 cm mast height, 2250 sq cm area. Typically run 1 kg with 500 gr bulb.

Cheers,

Earl

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Earl Boebert

A newly constructed model yacht with same is discussed at:

http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/show...5471-Delta-rig

The boat is an RG65; class rules are (basically) 65cm LOA, 110 cm mast height, 2250 sq cm area. Typically run 1 kg with 500 gr bulb.
Cheers,Earl

There has been a number of instances that my mast-aft rig design is compared directly with the 'Delta' rig....whatever that is exactly? I believe this 'delta rig' that is being discussed in this modeling effort could more ideally be compared with this mast-aft arrangement I saw in Holland a number of years ago:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...500/ppuser/399

This fellow Kees Radius sent me some pics and a few emails quite awhile back and I posted a few of the pics in my gallery. I had meant to post more about this design, but it must have slipped by me. I did find this:
Mast aft rig

...and this:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...269/ppuser/399

Let me make this point briefly since I don't have much time at the moment. I don't believe I have ever expounded that this 'delta' style rig with its single headsail should be any more efficient that any normal vessel sailing with its big headsail up in a uni fashion. So whether the mast is raked aft, forward, or backward should not make a great deal of difference in the aerodynamics of the situation.

On the other had my mast-aft design was geared toward a larger cruising vessel that might seek to have a lower aspect rig of multiple sails for stability advantages and balance advantages. This mast-aft configuration sought to emphasis the efficiency of headsails, particularly the genoa benefiting from updraft created by the following sail.

I can really appreciate the efforts at modelling and testing these fellows are expending. But I would really appreciate them putting their efforts toward something more akin to the configuration I have suggested, and/or some more Dynarig experients

[Earl Boebert]

Oh, it's just a "try it and see what happens" kind of playing around -- easy to do with toy boats :-) I doubt that Claudio would argue that it was anything more than that.

Cheers,

Earl

[Dave Gudeman]

Brian, I've read a lot of the posts on the mast-aft rig. I think the idea is very interesting and I've got a couple of question I hope you can answer.

First, you have mentioned that one of the advantages is that the rig can be easily lowered to get under bridges and such. But you also say that the head sails are roller-furled. I'm having trouble visualizing how that is going to work. When you lower the mast (presumably forward) what do you do with the fore stays that the sails are rolled up on? Surely you can't just roll the lines up with the sails wrapped around them?

Second, one of the big criticisms of the rig is that the tension on the back stay is too high. Why not use an un-stayed mast?

[brian eiland]

I don't think I said it would be an easy rig to lower forward. I think you likely picked that notion up in someone else's discussion of my rig. That said it might be possible to furl the sails up around a forestay made of the newer hi-tech cordage rather than the alum foil style forestays. I don't really promote that lowering aspect as a feature of this rig.

Forestays are not really workable on unstayed mast even if the are standing straight up. The unstayed mast would likely never be strong enough to resist a hi-tension rigging of any sort (forestay or backstay).

[Dave Gudeman]

Thanks, Brian. You are probably right that I am confused about who said what. I thought that I had read it on your web site, but I read through all of this aft-mast rig stuff a month ago before I joined the forum so it may have gotten a little murky.