60'+ or - 20' Ocean Racing Monofoiler Design Discussion

==============================
Rarely and momentarily. "..But a very dangerous thing " Well thats interesting: I wonder how many times in how many yatchet clubs those very words were(are?) said about multihulls in the bad old days-and here we have an esteemed multihuller saying the same thing about a monohull foiler. Tsk, Tsk.

 

Reality again - how are you going to shift that water ballast out to the extreme ends of the outrigger platform - and then get tripped just like a Moth. I mean the stupid V70's sail like white water kayaks in savage rapids - what's it going to be like on Super Moth? It would be Sod's Law plus. And if you put a canting keel lead mine on .... Bingo!, down plummets your performance, no way are you gong to get close to the multihulls then.

 

======================
Well hydroptere in its short course record config uses dynamic pressure to get at the water but I think a fast moving tank would probably be the way to move it....

 

60' Moth

Article mentions "6o' bi-foiler being as fast as 60' tri"...

http://www.seasailsurf.com/seasailsurf/actu/spip.php?article3343

From first post of this thread:

"Preliminary conclusions:
It appears to me that the 60' monofoiler could be built but right at the top end of available technology.It would be likely to equal a multi of it's own size that did not use foils and appears to have more SA per sq.ft. of wetted surface than even an ORMA tri though especially in light air the ORMA would be faster since it can retract it's hydrofoil . The concept of an extremely fast selfrighting hydrofoil holds a lot of promise. "

Last sentence of last paragraph of article-google translated: "A bi-foil of 60 feet would it then be able to compete with the best current trimarans on a journey to Banana great price?" (well, its google....)

 

Jesus Doug, that article is from 2004 ... five years ago. I'm still waiting for the damned flying car Popular Science promised me in the 1960s. By now, everyone should have a couple in the garage.

This is the kind of thing that happens when reality intrudes on a rich fantasy life. Economics and physics get in the way of "vision".

Using this fluff piece from 2004 as proof is like 2009 General Motors using a 1967 Popular Science magazine to "prove" a flying car is going to save the company. If you really want people to share your vision of a 60' monofoiler Ocean Racer, pass out tabs of LSD and break out the Led Zeppelin records.

--
Bill

 

Very funny Gary B!

He he!
Gary B., very funny:

Don't forget the Swedish development of the Bruce King two-tonner "Popeye". It was planned to install a central mercury-tank. Mercury was going to be pumped to the windward daggerboard. A concept for the canting-keel man to refine.

Regards,
Booster

 

=============
"bistros", the article was not offered as proof of anything other than that I'm not the only one thinking along these lines-which I've always suspected...

 

International Hydrofoil Society

In the society newsletter is a story about some research conducted into a "foil assisted maxi yacht". Some comments from the article:
-- "Just as with canting keels, fitting foils to an ocean racing maxi will not be without its problems. However, the results of this study showed a clear speed advantage for the foil-assisted maxi yacht. It is considered only a matter of time before someone sets a precedent with a full-scale foiling maxi yacht, which others will then follow." (note: they mean fully foiling not foil assisted where the hull stays in the water since they describe Hydroptere as "foil-assisted".)
One of their proposed foil systems is apparent in the illustration below and is simply brilliant!
----------------
There will be more on this research in the 2nd quarter 2010 newsletter so join the Society by sending $20US to: International Hydrofoil Society,PO Box 51, Cabin John MD 20818 USA
---------------
Foiling Maxi illustration:

 

60' Moth

Interestingly, there are now several keelboats being developed to sail on hydrofoils-either "foil assist" or full flying. When this 60 footer(post#1 of this thread) was first outlined it was "common knowledge" that a keelboat couldn't foil-great to see these developments.......

 

I for one applaud proposed designs like this. At my club we have a serious weed problem and a couple examples of this boat would surely keep the channel and race lanes clear.

I wonder how much of a problem it would be hydrodynamically to have a sharp forward edge to the foils to make the mowing process a little more efficient? Maybe a mulching attachment on the rear t-foil?

Doug, it looks like they could use your innovative design services to help them make the lifting foils retractable, as otherwise the boat would be a little dock/slip-unfriendly.

--
Bill

 

If there are, as you suggest, several keel boats of this type, just where are the URL links to such substantive data?.. and where are the construction photos to really bring it home as something of merit, rather than stuff that we tend to say when excited?

As for me, personally, I'd like to find out which NA's are on this and what they have to say about the concept and development process.

Can you please provide this support data so that we can peruse the info at our leisure and draw our own conclusions? No harm, no foul, Doug, if you don't have such info to present, but it might require a somewhat less emphatic declaration as to the actual development process.

 

60' Moth

1) http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/monohull-speed-speed-dream-vlad-murnikov-30880.html ( foil assist-full flying)

2) post 115 of this thread,( full flying keelboat foiler)

3) http://www.guywhitehouse.com/sail.aspx ( foil assist-rudder t-foil),

4) DSS-several boats built and being built- (foil assist ) http://dynamicstabilitysystems.com/#/profile

5) 60' Moth-post #1 this thread (full flying keelboat foiler)

 

Doug,

Pardon my apparent lameness, here, but virtually nothing is happening at all with regards to foil assist, or fully flying ballasted keelboats, from the references given. There's some chatter, but it looks kinda flat as to stuff getting built.

1. Vlad's thing is pure speculation right now until he can get some kind of test bed underway. Even then, it's a mighty leap from the indicated 30 footer up to the 90' monster.

2. The reference to post #115 is a circle thing that goes nowhere, I guess. What is the thread to which you refer?

3. The Guy Whitehouse reference shows a rendering with absolutely no idea as to when and where the boat will be launched, much less some progress photos of the thing being built.

4. The DSS reference is virtually defunct as an entity, it would seem. They apparently built a study application on as big a ride as a 27-foot sportboat and then zip. All the rest of the indications are illustrated by renderings and soft suggestions as to clients and timing.

The latest news on the site is from 5-19-08, where they announce that they are listed with Halfvalue.com as a product that can be bought from that Internet wholesaler. It's not a good sign when a company that has supposedly just broken down all the doors of monohull sailing, is now pushing their stuff through a down and dirty, Internet broker of sweet deals to be had for their customers.


It would appear that the sum total of progress on this foiling front is somewhat wanting. I wish it weren't so, but there's no solid info to be had from the links as they are given.

 

Not in development. It is an idea and some sketches to try and sell the project.

Nothing in that post shows any project in development.

No keelboat foiler. Not even close.

Several built and being built???

The website seems to have been abandoned nearly 2 years ago. One boat was built as a test bed. There is no evidence of any results showing if it really worked at all.

Not being developed.

 

Foiling keelboat development

I've talked with Guy Whitehouse(foil assist-rudder) and Vlad( foil assist-maybe full flying) personally-those projects are definitely "in development". There are several DSS boats in build now-one in the US-and at least one full size test boat is sailing. According to the article in the foils.org newsletter, that project is actively being developed.
The 60' Moth is progressing very slowly but it is being developed.