4 Meter mono foiler project

[wind_apparent]

Originally Posted by bistros

Hey, I was trying to use a Jedi Mind trick to get the radar off you till next spring. Someone found you through the yachtyakka site and outed you.

"This is not the Hydrofoil your looking for" "You can go about your Business" "move along"

I saw someone has made a kit boat based off the falco, looks pretty cool, are you part of this deal?

[bistros]

Originally Posted by wind_apparent

"This is not the Hydrofoil your looking for" "You can go about your Business" "move along"

I saw someone has made a kit boat based off the falco, looks pretty cool, are you part of this deal?

The new kit is based on the Quetzal - a previous design of Eric's before the Falco. They tweaked the design for flat pack panel kit build, took the rig design from the Falco and I watched it being built in four weeks this spring. Eric built it in the shop with me while I sanded the Falco - and when I was tired of sanding the Falco, I sanded the new Quetzal.

It's 20 pounds heavier than the Falco, and the hull shape is a lot less complex. Sailing head to head on the water the Falco is noticeably faster if the crew weigh in about the same. The Quetzal is a really good design to get people single handing on the trapeze in a skiffish boat at a far lower cost than the SwiftSolo or Musto Performance Skiff.

The Quetzal is a little more forgiving than the Falco on the water - hard chines and it will still plane heeled over on the secondary chine. I sailed the previous version a lot - it is a big part of the reason I worked with Eric to begin with. He's pretty gifted as a designer and he's really dedicated to light weight, simplicity and right materials for the right task.

I'm not part of the deal financially, but I'm trying to help promote things a bit - the people involved in the project (Dave, Phil & Eric) helped me a lot. The work I do on the Falco is being used as a development proving ground for the Quetzal - I've incorporated a new rig tensioning system, and done some refinement on the rigging that will make it to the Quetzal if it proves out.

--
Bill

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by wind_apparent

...There are two known things in the world of sailing, if you don't have pics it didn't happen, and once you've made it to sailing anarchy your probably screwed... if I can't stay under the radar at least maybe I can outrun the hype.

Yep, Sam, right on all accounts. It all depends on just who is doing the hyping, though. I'd say that anything that emanates from Bistros' pen will be well thought-out material and that most of the rest will be vacuous effluvium.

Beware of hanger's-on with only personal vested interests.

Nap of the Earth, Bubba....

Chris

[wind_apparent]

I'd say that anything that emanates from Bistros' pen will be well thought-out material and that most of the rest will be vacuous effluvium.

true, true, when I said thanks for the press release Bistros, what I meant was "Thanks for the well informed snippet that you put on SA to defuse the situation a little"

[yachtyakka]

Good morning yachties,

I'm sure most regular posters on "that" site will be a few light years behind your thinking. However a site that boosts more than 35,000,000 hits permonth must be a good thing as foilers moves toward main stream yachting.

Time will tell.

leverage off the lime light, you never know who may come out if the woodwork with a good idea.

Happy Sailing

Steve
www.yachtyakka.co.nz

PS have you sent me those other images yet?

[wind_apparent]

I'm sure most regular posters on "that" site will be a few light years behind your thinking. However a site that boosts more than 35,000,000 hits permonth must be a good thing as foilers moves toward main stream yachting

.

I was just having a little fun, actually couldn't be happier that its out there, good to know there are people out there besides disignforum.net crazies (me included) that think the project has legs, could come in very handy when I go sponsor shopping or want to start a national class association. I have been a little busy since I got into town but I'll try to get the bigger pics out to you. I can't PM them full size as an attachment, so could you Pm me your E-mail?

Thanks,

Sam

[SimonN]

Really great project and I ish you all the best with it. As some have said, don't let the negativity of others get you down. Here are a few "real world" observations for you.

1. Don't follow anyones pet theory. Go with ideas that have been proven to work.

2. Spend as much time as possible refining the systems that work the main foil. The biggest difference between Moths is the way in which this control works. This ranges from the wand, the connectors and control rods, the gearing of those (how much wand movement moves the flap how much) and much more. Even the flexibility of the wand has a big impact on the way the boat foils. This is what makes the boat sail well. You can take 2 boats with teh same foils, in the same place and a well set up boat is a dream to sail and a badly set up one is impossible. Even on a near "one design", the Bladerider, this happens.

3. On a new design with no reference points, I think that the f-box idea is good but I would use a screw instead of pins, so you can really fine tune it. In addition, I would make it possible to take the foil apart, like teh Bladerider, so you can change the angle of the foil in regard to the strut. In that way, you can alter the main variables.

4. Don't get too hung up on the rudder mechanism. I was going to start a design project to look at how to make this work better on my Moth but Rohan Veal stopped me, saying that the boats are now getting set up so well that there is little need for rudder foil changes.

5. As you rightly point out, you shouldn't need to move back and forth too much but you do need to be able to trapeze effortlessly. You need to reduce the forward pull of the trap wire as much as possible, so make sure you have enough rake in your rig. The more upright it is, the more forward pull.

6. Veal Heal is real and works, Therefore, you need to be able to sail the boat with it over on top of you. This si hard when trapezing. The lower the trap wire on the mast, the more you can heal but the more stress on your body.

However, the best advice I can give you is just "DO IT". You can spend forever theoretically working out what to do but it is best done on the water. And once launched, don't give up. Irrespective of what some might think, you cannot learn anything in only a few sails. I think the chances of you getting it right first time are small, so expect that and at best, you will be prleasantly suprised. Finally, if you do actually build it, I bet you will be suprised by how many experienced foilers will help you make it work.

[wind_apparent]

1. Don't follow anyones pet theory. Go with ideas that have been proven to work.

As far as it goes now I'm using all standard Moth technology except for the dual tiller worm drive.

2. Spend as much time as possible refining the systems that work the main foil. The biggest difference between Moths is the way in which this control works. This ranges from the wand, the connectors and control rods, the gearing of those (how much wand movement moves the flap how much) and much more. Even the flexibility of the wand has a big impact on the way the boat foils. This is what makes the boat sail well. You can take 2 boats with teh same foils, in the same place and a well set up boat is a dream to sail and a badly set up one is impossible. Even on a near "one design", the Bladerider, this happens.

I'll keep this in mind, it will probably be hit and miss at first, I'm going to just use standard Moth wand hardware and go from there.

3. On a new design with no reference points, I think that the f-box idea is good but I would use a screw instead of pins, so you can really fine tune it. In addition, I would make it possible to take the foil apart, like teh Bladerider, so you can change the angle of the foil in regard to the strut. In that way, you can alter the main variables.

I have been thinking about fbox style AOI control, I have a couple ideas, one uses an adjustable screw and some liear rail bearings. Eventually I would love two piece foils like bladerider, but it will probably be a basic straight section foil for the first bit, no use building a fancy foil that might break right away.

4. Don't get too hung up on the rudder mechanism. I was going to start a design project to look at how to make this work better on my Moth but Rohan Veal stopped me, saying that the boats are now getting set up so well that there is little need for rudder foil changes.

well, that would make dual tillers a lot easier , and i could try no control at first then switch if I needed to, with flapless all I need to change is the tiller and pin to retool the system for twist control.

5. As you rightly point out, you shouldn't need to move back and forth too much but you do need to be able to trapeze effortlessly. You need to reduce the forward pull of the trap wire as much as possible, so make sure you have enough rake in your rig. The more upright it is, the more forward pull.

Hope to find a good compromise for that.

6. Veal Heal is real and works, Therefore, you need to be able to sail the boat with it over on top of you. This si hard when trapezing. The lower the trap wire on the mast, the more you can heal but the more stress on your body.

I'll just try everything till it works....

I think the chances of you getting it right first time are small, so expect that and at best, you will be prleasantly suprised. Finally, if you do actually build it, I bet you will be suprised by how many experienced foilers will help you make it work.

to try to get it closer to "right" as fast as possible I plan on using known factors.

- A CST mast with known flex characteristics.
- a Sail designed and built by Bill Hansen
- Stolen Moth technology that already has 10 years of development

should take some of the growing pains away. and as far as experienced foilers to help, the list is already pretty long and getting longer, (I'm thinking of taking it out to the Gorge next August to get some pointers and some feedback)

thanks for the input..

Sam

[wind_apparent]

Does anyone have any information about trapeze rig loading? my mast is going to be mounted on a king post stub, so I need to make sure the post can take the load, that and I have to make sure to reinforce the deck under the post enough to take the pressure, anyone know the formula involved for this?

thanks

Sam

Couldn't you get some accurate info from the RS600FF guys? I would guess that the trapeze load(your weight @195lb,right?) will add about 33% to the mast compression load.

[wind_apparent]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Couldn't you get some accurate info from the RS600FF guys? I would guess that the trapeze load(your weight @195lb,right?) will add about 33% to the mast compression load.

I could get it from the 600 guys, if i could find any to contact. I'm looking for the formula not a percentage.

There are two formulas in Skenes; how did you calculate your shroud loads?

[wind_apparent]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

There are two formulas in Skenes; how did you calculate your shroud loads?

I didn't do them, since I'm using a contender mast, I'm just going to use the same gauge shrouds as a contender, and trap as well, so I know the rigging will be fine. Its just that I spaced doing the compression loads on the kingpin and I want to make sure I get something strong enough when I order my tubing.

I know that contenders seem lofi in comparison to what I have going on with this project, but CST's new high Modulus contender mast is the right length (6.5m) has good flex characteristics, and is only 46mm, so super low drag, theres no need to pay for tooling if something usable already exists.

[wind_apparent]

well, started cutting wood (MDF) today, I'll post pics when I have the frames together.

[bistros]

Originally Posted by wind_apparent

well, started cutting wood (MDF) today, I'll post pics when I have the frames together.

CNC cut or by template?

Remember to permanently mark down registration points & alignment lines that will help lining up the frames when putting them on the strongback. Get/make a few long consistent battens for checking fairness of the frames when lining them up.

Getting hold of a spinning laser level used for hanging suspended ceilings can really help your set up time. By knowing your starting datum point(s) are right, everything following is easier. Also, beg, borrow, buy or steal three times as many c-clamps as you think you will need. A bunch of hand ratcheting clamps help as well. High visibility florescent fishing line works well too for lining things up.

Every minute spent lining things up and verifying setup reduces fairing time by ten minutes, and could save the build. 80% prep, 5% execution and 15% cleanup.