33rd America's Cup

Thanks for the recent cites from Trouble and Everitt.

I dunno whether I agree with Everett, the downwind tussle is about angles and pressure already. All I think will change is that the angles will change which will make it more strategic still as the boats range further across the course and if they want to gybe through those more acute angles to stay in pressure it will put a different pressure of crewwork - rather than the two or three gybe downwind procession I've seen the odd times I have tuned in to watch.

Where I agree with Mr Everitt is that the boat behind will always be playing the pressure a bit more in the hope of coming through, but the front boat will be a bit out of phase as it has to protect its position. If I was in the back boat I would be trying to force the front one into areas of less pressure while optimising my own placement.

Sounds good to me!!!

I dunno - I don't have enough experience to judge properly - but that would be my guess.

The other thing is that though the waterline length has been increased, the weight has not been reduced much.

That's why I was interested in seeing some parametric polars comparing the old and new boats. The new ones are not going to be sailing like 18ft skiffs - the biggest difference will be waterline (or at least that is what I will think until I see some polars).

I think the choice to not allow displacement to find its own level is going to create some pretty freaky looking boats. They won't be light enough to have really dramatically different sailing characteristics from the last crop.

You can't go the direction of everything else in the water as the sail area can't be piled on to overcome wetted area of a flattish dinghy like hull - like it is with the open 60s and to an extent with the canting keelers (bless their little engines).

So there will be an excessive optimisation toward light wind and running performance by cutting away at wetted surface - I don't think we will be seeing big flat dinghy sections throughout the boat by any means.

This makes sense because you can't afford to lose if the wind goes light and having a lighter wind shaped hull is not too much of a disadvantage on a direct windward leeward course in moderate winds as well. Part of the reason that the past crop started to optimise toward thinner hulls. Remember these boats are never going to get the opportunity to sail with sprung sheets or sail with the kite pole on the forestay (excepting shennanigans with Code Zeros and their ilk) - it is either all in or all out.

So I think that puts Julian's points a bit further out of the picture.

Anyway ... just ruminations at this point. We'll see what REALLY happens. And someone will tell me surely if I am wrong - please do - I can learn something!

Best wishes
Michael Storer

 

Hi Michael!

The only flaw in your logic is that you start from the premise that the current boats are good match racers, they aren't.

As Trouble says, the boats must be stuck in the water. It must not be possible for a boats to accelerate quickly and gain separation. The boats should sail upwind at 45deg true (not 30-35) and downwind at deep angles. The boats should be able to cover on both tacks and both gybes, this is not so at the angles the ACC boats sail, it was more true of the 12's.

We used to see 15-30 tack duels upwind and nearly as many gybes downwind. The old triangle course required the boats to be powerful on a reach. The 12's were good boats, just a bit small for the spectacle the AC has become. I say go back to the Metre rule and sail in 18's or 24's if you want a grander scale.

Joe average could care less about the actual speed of the boat (only sailors care), Joe average can relate to close racing at any speed. NASCAR is slow and low tech compared to F1, but which has the larger audience and closer racing?

90 ft LWL
180 tons displacement
7,000 sqft + upwind sail area

That would be a boat that gets some respect.

 

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Finally a boat that motorboaters will do almost anything to keep out of the way of!!! If I had right of way, I think I would still quietly tack onto port to keep well clear!

Maybe if keel area is limited we can get 'em down to 45degs true upwind - how about 5ft draft?

Or back to the J's with no winches and a requirement for Persian carpets and a grand piano ... "is that whisky in that decanter, Jeeves"?

Where is my collection of Aretha!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xALiBgzPzE

Nice to run into you Randy - how's the schooner going? Do you have a thread somewhere?

MIK

 

Ah .. the schooner is on hold. A few other things have taken priority.

 

Something between America and Vigilant...?

 

from nz herald

Team New Zealand's legal expert, Jim Farmer QC, is picking that Alinghi will agree to a 'conventional' America's Cup regatta in 2009 with a full complement of challengers.

The Swiss holders have suffered two telling blows in recent days - the winning of the case in the New York Supreme Court by BMW Oracle and Grant Dalton's revelation that Emirates Team New Zealand have a claim for up to $50 million against Alinghi if the regatta is postponed past 2009.

Both matters have seen a significant power shift in the America's Cup with Alinghi now highly likely to get back round the negotiating table with BMW Oracle rather than appealing against the court decision and rather than taking on Oracle in a head-to-head duel in 90ft trimarans in October 2008.

"Alinghi said before the court case that they would not appeal and I have seen nothing which suggests otherwise," said Farmer.

"In any case, I'd agree that they are unlikely to appeal because I don't think there are any real grounds for them to do so and they would be unlikely to succeed."

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That leaves the prospect of the multi-hulls' showdown. While it is too early to write off this option completely, Farmer said Team NZ's dealings with the protagonists and the other challengers while the court case was going on suggested Oracle wanted a conventional regatta in 2009 with other challengers on board.

The trimarans option - which would freeze out Team New Zealand and other challengers - is now seen as the "big stick" Oracle can wave at Alinghi to help force a compromise over the rules for the next regatta.

"I think they do want that," said Farmer. "I think all the indications are that Oracle and all the challengers want to have the event in 2009. So it is now very much dependent on how Alinghi react."

Alinghi's ability to react in any defiant manner now seems limited. If the Swiss stall or frustrate, Oracle has the option of enforcing the October 2008 trimaran challenge.

Some fear Oracle would now deliberately frustrate the negotiating process with Alinghi to bring the trimarans into play.

That possibility cannot be ruled out - cynical observers note Oracle has been proceeding with multi-hull preparations ( latest rumours suggest the mould is almost completed) even as it has been talking confidently about winning the court case.

Farmer said he did not think Oracle had been "sandbagging" negotiations to achieve a settlement during the court case and did not think they would sandbag matters now - to deliberately force the multi-hulls duel.

There is no doubt Oracle have the jump on Alinghi in terms of readying for that option and have been involving some of the world's best designers. They have reportedly hired renowned French multi-hull skipper Franck Cammas and CEO and America's Cup skipper Russell Coutts is launching his World Sailing League, a 70ft catamaran series. A multi-hull challenge will not be without its attractions to Coutts as a way of promoting the ISL he is launching with Paul Cayard.
However, Alinghi are not entirely without options. They have been linked to the blisteringly fast Hydroptere, the 'rocket ship' which recently broke world speed records, notching 44.5 knots over 500 metres and 41.5 knots over a nautical mile - and which could, in theory anyway, be adapted for use in the multi-hull challenge. The makers have close links with Alinghi.

However, most observers are now expecting compromise and agreement for a 2009 regatta - and the recent machinations have also shown the teeth of the New Zealand syndicate for the first time since they entered the 2009 regatta when Alinghi were seeking challengers.

That entry - and Team NZ's steadfast silence since then - led many to believe the Kiwis had decided to throw their hats into the Alinghi ring.

But it has now emerged that Team NZ's participation had a clever and decided sting in the tail - and they used it when Alinghi signalled recently that the regatta would be postponed to 2010 or 2011. Right, said Team NZ, that'll cost you $32m or $50m respectively, according to our agreement.

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"It was," said Farmer of the agreement that any delay would see compensation paid to Team NZ "a matter of commercial prudence."

He did not know of any other such agreements between other challengers and Alinghi.

However, it is plain that, far from being meek and compliant partners as Alinghi tried to bend the America's Cup to its will, Team NZ have been actively involved in getting the two factions to the negotiating table and working closely with other challengers.

 

Open letter from Ernesto Bertarelli: My vision for the America’s Cup
http://33rd.americascup.com/en/

 

Why a Cat Fight Would Be Good for the America's Cup

Seven Reasons Why a Cat Fight Would Be Good for the America's Cup
.................
1. Tradition
A match sailed under the Deed of Gift would be more traditional. We have strayed a long way from the original concept of the Cup since the 1850's. The way it was supposed to work was that some rich old coot would write a posh letter to the New York Yacht Club essentially saying, "My boat's faster than your boat. Nah nah nah nah." The NYYC would accept the challenge by writing another posh letter saying effectively, "See you next July off Sandy Hook. Nah nah nah nah." The NYYC would then find some other rich old coot with a faster boat, meet the first rich old coot off Sandy Hook, crush him, and all would be well with the world.

So let's get back to that tradition. One defender. One challenger. Two crazy rich old coots. The way it was meant to be. Yachting needs to honor its traditions.

2. Excitement
There's no argument, multihulls are faster and more exciting than big monohulls with all those tons of spent uranium or whatever metal they use now in their keels to slow them down. Let's face it, the 50 knot speed barrier will be first broken by some kind of multihull (not counting windsurfers). Can you imagine a round-the-buoys race between two cats sailing at that speed (or anywhere near it)?
...................

Read more at:http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2007/12/seven-reasons-why-cat-fight-would-be.html

 

On the other hand.....

From Antonio Vettese, editor - Vela e Motore: "I agree with Bob Fisher in (Scuttlebutt's) Issue 2492 in every point. I just want to add that in the 32 edition of the Cup, AC Management had marketed the ancient legend of the Cup, a conquest made by 150 years of regattas. In other words, the big income and the public interest for the event this past summer was a result of ACM being able to sell the old event more than building a new one. The proposed new format, at the moment, doesn't have any main sponsor and it is said that this is the true reason for the "postponement" and is the evidence of the new format weakness."

 

Yep - good point - it always has been a cat fight!

MIK

 

To make it a real catfight, how about, the only rule is LOA or sailing weight ? (one or the other) and alternating with the winners choice as to numbers only.

Then arguments can be settled and the winner determines next years LOA or gross sailing weight which is also the minimum weight (including all crew and ballast which must be retained but can be relocated).

The configuration would then open it to foils, cats, tris, punts or monohulls.

No restrictions on sail area or form, but absolutely no motors. hand held or up to "c" cell battery powered navigation & instrument devices are ok.

That should stir up some interest and controversy.

 

The boats would be over the horizon in 20 minutes. Few spectator boats would be fast enough to follow.

I suppose they could all sit and eat sandwiches beside the finish line.

With a normal sized course they would do so many laps the crowd would get dizzy.

Having come from a mono background, I have done a couple of short ocean races in fast multis - I don't know why you would bother racing offshore in anything else.

There are plenty of avenues for developing multis at any rate. Leave one for the monos, eh!? But to have the rules open enough for there to be development is a good way of making it interesting to lots of people.

The new formula has a couple of design challenges which are interesting. A mono is much more complex because of the restraint that the source of stability also slowing down the boat.

With the multi - it will be able to go faster with more stability - it is not constrained in the same way - there does start to be a structural weight cost - but in general Multi design is pretty dull by comparison (hehehe) except in the structural areas - semi circular hulls (as a general principle with some fiddling at the ends for dynamic reasons) - long, thin, wide apart, weight saving - push any of those and you will go faster. Wetted surface is decoupled from beam.

YEAH - multihulls are just a bundle of independent variables!

With a mono there may be a cost to going wider in terms of wetted surface or wavemaking. More weight in the keel for upwind and you lose downwind, more sail area and you need a lot more weight and/or wavemaking. Tricky. Interesting.

MIK

 

Think carefully, loa benefits multi's more, sailing weight should favour monos so every second challenge one or the other has more advantage. A triangle and up/down wind of about 1 mile legs could keep spectators close (I thought that was the standard course?)

 

1 mile < 3 mins @ 20kn

MIK

 

That could make for some exciting viewing if that were to be the format for future "America's Cup" races.

I see in preliminary races to the Syd/Hobart the maxis were holding in excess of twenty knots inside Sydney Harbour! Lets hope they get favourable winds and a FAST race this boxing day start!