21st Century Daysailer/Weekender

[Doug Lord]

I'm curious what some of the contributors here think would make an improvement on daysailer/weekenders of the past and present. By daysailer/weekender I mean a boat from approximately 14' to 20' with minimal accomodations-perhaps just a small open cabin like the O'Day Daysailer or enclosed cabin like my TS-18.
What do you think would constitute an improvement of these types of boats and why?
---
Wording included in the Daysailer literature-sort of a minimum requirement for this type:
"Forward of the cockpit is the cuddy cabin area. With the inclusion of the new safety features, this area has been restyled… an accessory vinyl lockable cuddy enclosure is now available. The cuddy provides adequate room for two to camp out overnight."
http://www.gjenvick.com/BangorPunta/...ySailerII.html

My TS-18:
O'Day Daysailer:
Compact 16:
Hunter 216(21'):

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

I'm curious what some of the contributors here think would make an improvement on daysailer/weekenders of the past and present. By daysailer/weekender I mean a boat from approximately 14' to 20' with minimal accomodations-perhaps just a small open cabin like the O'Day Daysailer or enclosed cabin like my TS-18.
What do you think would constitute an improvement of these types of boats and why?

My TS-18:
O'Day Daysailer:
Compact 16:
Hunter 216(21'):

Further refinement of the boat type would be necessary to provide realistic commentary. The length / purpose stated would encompass everything from a Porsche Cayenne to a Chrysler minivan if applied to the automotive world.

Sportboats from the Viper 640 to the slowest camp cruiser fit.

Being open minded, there is one criteria that keeps popping up in conversations I have:

- ability to close a door/companionway for a private bathroom break for the ladies. Also important here is accommodations (bathroom-wise) better than a untethered bucket.

[Chris Ostlind]

The 21' Gato Especial

http://www.lunadadesign.com/gato-especial-21.html

[alan white]

Any modern sailboat ought to take full advantage of existing technologies within a reasonable budget. I think the drop keel hasn't been explored nearly enough. Heavy centerboards have, but trailerable drop-keelers, while effective in terms of maintainance and righting arm and trailerability, not to mention space-saving, are almost non-existant in the teen lengths.
Also, cockpit footwells that are deep and comfortable even if they go below the waterline. They could easily have a gasketed cover for when things get dicey. Then the cover would prevent the cockpit from filling when the boat sits on the mooring. Small sailboats that self-bail have cockpits that are too high and exposed. I'd rather see seats at the usual (self-bailing type) sole level with a removable footwell cover.

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by alan white

Any modern sailboat ought to take full advantage of existing technologies within a reasonable budget. I think the drop keel hasn't been explored nearly enough. Heavy centerboards have, but trailerable drop-keelers, while effective in terms of maintainance and righting arm and trailerability, not to mention space-saving, are almost non-existant in the teen lengths.
Also, cockpit footwells that are deep and comfortable even if they go below the waterline. They could easily have a gasketed cover for when things get dicey. Then the cover would prevent the cockpit from filling when the boat sits on the mooring. Small sailboats that self-bail have cockpits that are too high and exposed. I'd rather see seats at the usual (self-bailing type) sole level with a removable footwell cover.

======================
Thanks ,Alan. If I were to do the 18 again now I'd probably go with a vertical lifting keel instead of the original swing keel.


----
Bistros-added a further explanation of the type in the first post-the Viper does not fit-just doesn't have the "accomodation"- but a high performance boat could fit. http://www.cruisingworld.com/article...=397&catID=571

[PAR]

From a performance point of view, the ballasted lifting appendage is a good choice, but having lived in shoal waters most of my life, I can't accept the draw backs of some of these. Imagine screaming along on a beam reach with everything flying and that big torpedo bulb doing it's job, when you suddenly run into a patch of water that's 80% the draft of your boat.

I've managed to tear out conventional, unweighted centerboards that can bounce along, I can only imagine what would be the lot in life if I didn't know any better about missiles mounted on the end of daggerboards. My main disagreement is the weight you have to add, to insure some level of safety when you do smash into things all standing.

I'm not convinced this is the way for small craft except in locations where depth is never an issue. This pretty much discounts the east and the gulf coasts of the US.

Foils are the answer to more speed, but they also bring the risk of breakage. This may just be that the materials necessary to make them bullet proof, aren't in wide enough use to be reasonably priced yet. I suspect there will be a day when foil sailing is fast, fun, reliable, wet and reasonably priced.

The enclosed port-a-pottie for the little woman is a time honored method to permit us a fishing with the boys day. Take advantage of this gentlemen, you can have more beer aboard, don't have to worry about what you say and you can enjoy a good fart.

Small craft have practical limitations for taking a dump in private. I suppose the fastidious sweetheart, will make a standing shower stall, curtain sort of thing and hoist it up in the middle of the cockpit, while she does the deed. As if someone motoring by doesn't know what's going on, under that blue dolphin clad shower curtain.

Once you get up to around 16' LOD, you can work a hatch into the aft edge of the foredeck, where a pottie can be waiting for her and of course the half a shower curtain, maybe on a folding frame, to offer some level of embarrassment protection. Honestly, I'd be under so much pressure to perform in that little shower curtain thing, that I don't know if I could. On the other hand, I'm the type that would start making things up, once she closed the curtain and was taking care of business. "Honey, hurry up, the Harbor Patrol is here and want to board us", "Honey, hurry up, we have wee little, okay maybe not so little, bit of a leak", "Honey hurry up, there's another boat and they have a potato gun", "Honey, did you bring air freshener?" man I'd probably be too cruel to ever consider crapping on my boat.

Back to performance. I've been playing with what I call laminar wings. Most think you have to have these big, deep wings to really go fast, but you can dramatically increase speed by lightening you boat and decreasing wetted area. If you have a set of wings that sort of match the deadrise to your boat at the centerboard slot and space them down a few inches, your draft isn't much affected. You still are a shoal boat, but now at speed the boat will rise up, decreasing wetted surface and increasing speed. as the boat get higher in the water, the wings get into the surface effect and lose lift, so you'll only rise a little, but you can decrease the weight of the boat by 50% and the wetted area by at least as much. Match this with a similar one at the stern, maybe on the rudder head cheeks of a kickup style setup. Boats that once were your equal will now see nothing but transom.

Food for thought . . .

[Doug Lord]

This innovative design is by Paul Riccelli (PAR) and is posted here with his permission. It doesn't fit the thread exactly(no accomodation) but has some terrific features I've never seen on a daysailer before. Note, particularly, the rudder and rudder trunk.....

[PAR]

This will be the rig that goes on the one I build. An over rotating, reefable wing luff, that can accept a conventional sail (or custom) with retro fitted pneumatic battens (the top one will likely need to be rigid). This should bring it closer to this thread's theme.

The conventional sprit rig (above) has a curved, fixed boom, rather then the typically straight sprit on a snotter. In light air the straight sprit on the fouled tack side can all but kill drive over the lower potion of the sail, the curve boom hasn't this problem, though it does need an outhaul to replace the effect of the snotter. Of course the mast rotates and the sail is tracked.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by PAR

The enclosed port-a-pottie for the little woman is a time honored method to permit us a fishing with the boys day. Take advantage of this gentlemen, you can have more beer aboard, don't have to worry about what you say and you can enjoy a good fart.

Small craft have practical limitations for taking a dump in private. I suppose the fastidious sweetheart, will make a standing shower stall, curtain sort of thing and hoist it up in the middle of the cockpit, while she does the deed. As if someone motoring by doesn't know what's going on, under that blue dolphin clad shower curtain.

Once you get up to around 16' LOD, you can work a hatch into the aft edge of the foredeck, where a pottie can be waiting for her and of course the half a shower curtain, maybe on a folding frame, to offer some level of embarrassment protection. Honestly, I'd be under so much pressure to perform in that little shower curtain thing, that I don't know if I could. On the other hand, I'm the type that would start making things up, once she closed the curtain and was taking care of business. "Honey, hurry up, the Harbor Patrol is here and want to board us", "Honey, hurry up, we have wee little, okay maybe not so little, bit of a leak", "Honey hurry up, there's another boat and they have a potato gun", "Honey, did you bring air freshener?" man I'd probably be too cruel to ever consider crapping on my boat.
.

I'm always amazed when I see a cabin plan with a Porta-Potty conveniently tucked into the open V of a a V-berth. If I thought there was any chance someone would actually try to use the thing within a foot of my head, I'd take a gun to bed with me: [click] "move it or lose it, matey...."

As much as it screws up the rest of the accomodations, I'm afraid anything I build larger than a single-hander will have a cat-box corner as far from the V-berth as I can get it, with at least a shower curtain for privacy. On top of everything else, I can head straight for the companionway with a full potty, instead of having to drag it through the cabin around the centerboard first.

[PAR]

Which was it Troy . . . the "Honey, did you bring air freshener?" line? or the potato gun? I actually did this to someone once. I didn't know his better half was on the crapper and all she heard was "no, no, no, auuu **** NO, MAN NO" followed by immediate multiple direct hits to the hull sides and shower curtain sticking up through the companionway hatch. When her head appeared, the moment was priceless, well okay it was for me anyway. I could hear her screaming at the poor guy across the lake for an hour.

[souljour2000]

Small boats certainly have a way of bringing people together...I'm thinking of moving my porta-potty from the starboard side of the v-berth forward and to the middle with the throne facing aft of course...One's head should be about half out of the forward hatch...watching for intruders...the fairer sex will just have to live with it and the curtain will be bigger.... but she's only 5'2 and might stay below the radar more anyways...btw...very nice design Par...and the info you touched on about lifting laminar mini-wings midway down the keel I find to be of great interest....

[alan white]

Originally Posted by PAR

From a performance point of view, the ballasted lifting appendage is a good choice, but having lived in shoal waters most of my life, I can't accept the draw backs of some of these. Imagine screaming along on a beam reach with everything flying and that big torpedo bulb doing it's job, when you suddenly run into a patch of water that's 80% the draft of your boat.

I've managed to tear out conventional, unweighted centerboards that can bounce along, I can only imagine what would be the lot in life if I didn't know any better about missiles mounted on the end of daggerboards. My main disagreement is the weight you have to add, to insure some level of safety when you do smash into things all standing.

I'm not convinced this is the way for small craft except in locations where depth is never an issue. This pretty much discounts the east and the gulf coasts of the US.

Foils are the answer to more speed, but they also bring the risk of breakage. This may just be that the materials necessary to make them bullet proof, aren't in wide enough use to be reasonably priced yet. I suspect there will be a day when foil sailing is fast, fun, reliable, wet and reasonably priced.

The enclosed port-a-pottie for the little woman is a time honored method to permit us a fishing with the boys day. Take advantage of this gentlemen, you can have more beer aboard, don't have to worry about what you say and you can enjoy a good fart.

Small craft have practical limitations for taking a dump in private. I suppose the fastidious sweetheart, will make a standing shower stall, curtain sort of thing and hoist it up in the middle of the cockpit, while she does the deed. As if someone motoring by doesn't know what's going on, under that blue dolphin clad shower curtain.

Once you get up to around 16' LOD, you can work a hatch into the aft edge of the foredeck, where a pottie can be waiting for her and of course the half a shower curtain, maybe on a folding frame, to offer some level of embarrassment protection. Honestly, I'd be under so much pressure to perform in that little shower curtain thing, that I don't know if I could. On the other hand, I'm the type that would start making things up, once she closed the curtain and was taking care of business. "Honey, hurry up, the Harbor Patrol is here and want to board us", "Honey, hurry up, we have wee little, okay maybe not so little, bit of a leak", "Honey hurry up, there's another boat and they have a potato gun", "Honey, did you bring air freshener?" man I'd probably be too cruel to ever consider crapping on my boat.

Back to performance. I've been playing with what I call laminar wings. Most think you have to have these big, deep wings to really go fast, but you can dramatically increase speed by lightening you boat and decreasing wetted area. If you have a set of wings that sort of match the deadrise to your boat at the centerboard slot and space them down a few inches, your draft isn't much affected. You still are a shoal boat, but now at speed the boat will rise up, decreasing wetted surface and increasing speed. as the boat get higher in the water, the wings get into the surface effect and lose lift, so you'll only rise a little, but you can decrease the weight of the boat by 50% and the wetted area by at least as much. Match this with a similar one at the stern, maybe on the rudder head cheeks of a kickup style setup. Boats that once were your equal will now see nothing but transom.

Food for thought . . .

The dropping keel is, however, no different from a fin keel, or rather a lot of existing fin keels. I drew one once that slid up at an angle (thereby more easily shedding lobster warps, etc.), its stem exiting the deck forward of the mast. The CG moved forward, but a compensating inside ballast could slide aft simultaneously and solve thaqt problem. Or crew weight could shift aft to the desired trim.
The reason I like the drop keel is obviously the trailerability. It is as trailerable as a centerboard, but its bulb ballast can be very snug to the bottom, which also allows beaching.
If you do ground, unlike a fixed keel the drop keel can be raised, which beats waiting out the tide or having to kedge off or be rescued. A few inches of solid rubber aft of the keel would absorb some pretty nasty bumps too.
I can picture a boat in the 16-22 ft range, 1800 lb displacement. Imagine an easily set up rig, and the whole thing pulled by a mini pickup truck.

[souljour2000]

This is an interesting thread..especially because of some of the design talent that is weighing in here...if I may I'd like to ask your opinions (anyone please feel free to weigh in here)..I'd like your opinions on the bilge keels so prevalent in the UK for many years...in general...and ...more to the crux of my question...whether they could be modified..especially with laminar mini-wings like PAR mentioned... halfway up in a safe-from-grounding region ...and maybe high-aspect enough to really take some weight (drag) off the hull...enough to perhaps offset the substantial wetted -surface this design would create and yet still yield a feasible twin keel design with its highly desirable drying -out capability and sometimes-mentioned tracking and resistance to leeward slippage when heavily heeled.....? Obviously alot of what-ifs and speculation and tons of drag issues here but that's part of the fun. I do value your thoughts..you may fire when ready....

[PAR]

The nature of most bilge keel designs is to offer a sturdy set of legs, more then anything else, other wise you'd cut one off and move it to the centerline.

In fact, I've never seen a high aspect set of bilge keels before. I mention this simply because you're paying a dear drag penalty with the extra fin, plus it's usually not shaped for speed, but to hold up the boat.

Now it you took the bilge dagger approach, like used on a lake scow, maybe with some wings on the bottom of each. You'd use the leeward board as usual, maybe getting her to fly a bit, but lower both and lock them for drying out upright.

I honestly don't think this is especially practical, not because it wouldn't work, but because a hull designed to be light enough to fly and shaped to get to take off speed will be nearly flat bottomed anyway. So, what's the point of having bilge keels if she's not going to flop over when she takes to ground?

Alan, I'm just not particularly thrilled with these new torpedoes on a board sort of things. I've had to repair a few that have run up on something at speed and they tear up the bottom of the boat, the back of the case, lots of stuff gets broken with that kind of leverage. Yes, fin keels can do similar damage, but they usually have a much wider root and a generous fairbody, to spread the impact loads over a good portion of bottom. Plus they don't have a case, board or pivot pin that will also need repair.

[souljour2000]

Right..I always get confused with the term PAR... high-aspect wings are actually very thin right?...like the wings of fighter jet instead of the thick-cross section of a much-slower but high-lift Piper or Cessna wing...not really practical for bilge keeler to support its weight...and not break them off...