16-18' "Sit-in" Planing Monohull ("Trapwing")

Ridiculous! With the wing to weather and at max extension if the boat were to capsize the electric system would AUTOMATICALLY center the wing and and weight. If for some reason the weight stayed on the high side its CG would coincide with the CB of the heeled hull while the leeward buoyancy pod
would be acting to right the boat as would the keel. While the auto centering system is absolutely key to the design of the boat the system is backed up by the way the wing works.
The wing is designed to allow the boat to sail at a set angle of heel-that's why the whole wing pivots-the picture below illustrates the idea of the athwartship pivot.
The angle shown is how the boat would be sailed on PORT tack:

 

Just curious, Doug, but where, exactly, is the design for this boat you keep ranting about? Is there a readable paper, or computer CAD, drawing somewhere with dimensions, weight specifications, detail callouts, cross sections, etc., or we still just wandering around in the dreamscape of your noodle with no real way to pin anything down?

You keep saying it will do this and that and there isn't anything to properly describe this mythical, IT WILL, save for your highly suspect words.

That picture of the model contraption on the lawn isn't anything like it, so would you please quit posting that shot, as if lends some credence to your IT WILL'S

Perhaps you could cease proposing things like an amateur when you also demand to be regarded as something like a professional. There are necessary skills involved here, Doug and you are not displaying anything like that.


A SIDE NOTE... Just a little while back, Doug, you found it appropriate to get in Bill's face because he left out a function in one of his calculations. You chose to go on and on about it as if you were the King of accuracy and absolutely without error. Yet, in the search to compare your myth boat to some of the better boats out there already, you totally misquoted the easily available data on the Weta and then acted as if you were oh, so right. What is truly funny about this, is the fact that the data could have been simply cut and pasted error free from the Weta page... and you didn't do that.

I've been waiting for you to demonstrate the kind of class that you assume to have in these kinds of matters... you know, something like take it upon yourself to sincerely apologize to Bill right here on this public forum, so that we can all see that you are made of the stuff that you profess.

Since you have not taken this upon yourself with any degree of personal class, I'm calling you out right here and right now.

It's time to man-up Douglas and issue a direct and sincere apology for being a person who is capable of making your own unforced, substantive errors.

What about it, Doug? Have you got the stones?

 

Does the seemingly endless supply of gizmos erupting from this Rube Goldberg Contraption never cease?

Has anyone ever experienced a knockdown where a CG and CB magically line up and remain static? Seems to me whenever I've been in this situation there are many other forces acting on the system, and in a fairly random manner.

Maybe the whole thing is being built from unobtainium and that's why it doesn't make sense to everyone else.

 

Post 96.

 

Geez.... what was I thinking when I suggested a real set of drawings with dimensions and the whole works?

Yep, Post #96... that's exactly what I was looking for. My engineer and architect friends might back away as if the thing was gas soaked, but hell, let's not be picky.

Brilliant, dude.

 

Trapwing Turbo High Performance Singlehander

Here are the original numbers ,presented in the first post of this thread, backed up with much more detail:
LOA 16'(or so)
SA-around 160 sq.ft. upwind
12' sliding "trapwing" with 160 lb ballast
All Up boat weight minus wing,wing ballast and keel ballast including rig:160lb
75lb keel bulb
130lb-180lb crew
SCP/Total Weight=30% @ 180lb crew
----------------------------
And once again ,in detail:
LOA 16' using a Blade F16 hull from Matt McDonald of Falcon,LLC in Port Canaveral, Fl.and:
Hull weight(with cockpit) 73lb(actual weight+ cockppit mod)
SA 160 sq. unstayed squaretop rig,carbon mast- 35lb
Foils-17lb
12' wing,all up-20lb
movable ballast-160 lb
motor,controls,battery (25lb est)
ballast keel- 75lb
----------------------
SUB Total=405lb
crew=180lb
TOTAL = 585lb
====================
RM:
160@ 9' =1440ft.lb
20 @ 4' = 80ft.lb
75 @ 1'(15 degrees)= 75ft.lb
------------------------------
Total= 1595ft.lb

------------------------------------
Bethwaite says a boat with an SCP/TOTAL WEIGHT of 30% will plane upwind
-(moot to some extent with this L/B of 16/1)
-SCP= RM/CE to CLR=9'; 1595/9=177.2
SCP/TOTAL WEIGHT= 177.2/585=30.3% with 180lb. crew
(weight within 1.7% of guestimate)
--------------------------
Another advantage of this concept is a HUGE crew weight range due to the fact that the crew contributes no RM.
-------------------------------------
Please Note: This is the trickiest version of the concept without a doubt because of the narrow hull. The 4' ballasted keel will make it a little easier to sail and sailing the boat without the keel would be for the trully adventurous able-bodied sailor. My personal version of the boat is longer with a 21/1 LB ratio and the same wing. It will be an experimental test bed for this concept and others. This incarnation of the experimental platform will be the first to sail-fairly soon with any luck-and a lot of help. A much less demanding version of the concept is easily possible.

 

Pterodactyl and on-deck movable ballast

One of my inspirations -that has bolstered my own work on this project- is the
Bethwaite/Billoch collaboration on the concept of Pterodactyl-which was conceived of to use on-deck movable ballast. Here is the original SA article: http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2005/pteradactyl.htm
--------------
What wasn't known then was what Julian says about it here. I asked him to comment on the Trapwing which he did in a PM that I'm publishing here with his permission. He reveals who was behind the Pterodactyl project:

"A few years back these pages graced a thing called the Pterodactyl, it was a big double proa that Russel Coutts and Paul Cayard asked me to do as the ultimate circuit boat. Among other things its nice to see the OMR*go that route, but Russel was big on having 3 tonne of lead on tracks moving from side to side, inside the wing beams. I thought moving water through 200mm diameter pipes would be better, but the concept has merit. Your issue is that unless you have significant tip pods, then you will never be able to react quickly enough to keep the wings out of the water. Just cant do it! "

*Ocean Multihull Rule: it is the predominant rating rule used in Asia (and Australia) it seems for handicap racing in this part of the world.(dl)

 

Look, the same old pictures of a non-existent boat posted once again by the guy who can't post photos or the drawings of the boat he claims to be building.

How many years has his "project" been "in build"? One year, two years? Sure. Plenty of time to post the same photos for the tenth or twentieth time, but never enough time to actually do drawings of "the project", or do any work to get it done.

Sad waste of bandwidth.

 

a proa? a double proa? what is that? pics?

 

=========
The renderings by Julian and Martin Billoch are all there is- double proa? I wouldn't call it that-maybe "large keelboat with buoyancy pods"?
The good news is that Julian thinks the concept of on-deck movable ballast-and the trapwing-has merit provided the pods are large enough....

 

What he (Bethwaite) indicates is a potential for moveable ballast. Julian does not prefer a massive hunk of lead crashing around inside of an aka beam, much less a fully mobile containment structure, having its own very complex issues. He states very matter of factly, that, "... but Russel (Coutts) was big on having 3 tonne of lead on tracks moving from side to side, inside the wing beams. I thought moving water through 200mm diameter pipes would be better..."

Connected to this, I never have seen the descriptive function you wish to apply to this boat with your, "On-Deck Moveable Ballast" nomenclature as it applies to this study by Bethwaite. If the moving weight is inside of the aka beam, it is not "on-deck", it is contained within the structural component of the craft.

What's next... a daggerboard, as we see on a canting keel craft, is now an "on-deck daggerboard", simply because the trunk of said board is tied to the deck of the boat? Or an "On-Deck", or even "On-Cabin" lifting keel, should the process of lifting said appendage be connected to a davit structure placed on the particular structure?

Perhaps there's just a bit too much wordsmithing going on here? There is a distinct difference between the words ON and IN.

Further, by posting this statement from Bethwaite, you seem to be inferring that he is endorsing your approach in the design of the boat, which is the topic of this thread. He is not doing so. He is merely saying that the idea of moving ballast around has potential and that he has his own preferences for doing so.

The pods, which allow this entire design avenue to take place, are another discussion. Julian's statement is extremely telling in this regard and I'd love to explore the full potential, should it be shown worthwhile through the subsequent postings.

 

Trapwing Turbo High Performance Singlehander

Is there anyone who is interested in this concept that feels 12' of beam is too much beam for a monohull/monohull keelboat between 16' and 21' LOA?

 

No one is interested in your fantasies, and you are not interested in anyone's opinions unless they match your pre-determined ideas.

This is simply another pointless discussion, started by you, that will go nowhere. It is yet another transparent fishing expedition for you to pontificate about nothing.

The real question is why don't you post photos and drawings of this Rube Goldberg pile-o'-parts?

 

Doug:

I'm a member of a relatively large club with a pretty large dry sail fleet - hundreds of boats. We have four ramps and two large T shaped docks that are shared amongst the ramps. Major fleets of 505s, I-14s, Albacores, Fireballs and Lasers plus a lot of other types.

Cats are present, but by no means a huge part of the dry sail contingent. Tornados, Hobies, Nacras etc.

Most dinghy sailors find cats annoying at the docks - you can't easily get around them to move on/off the ramps and they take up a lot of space. Generally, everybody is polite (It is Canada after all).

A 16 - 21' boat that would have a sliding seat type thingie intruding 4-6' across the dock would be a disaster. The same goes for buoyancy pods or the like. I could see this being a problem for anyone sailing this type of boat, and I could see the boat owner becoming quickly unpopular.

The drysail keelboat cranes here are very busy - since there isn't enough dockage (about 420 slots) many people drysail their keelboats if they are on trailers. The crane slots are only 12' wide and are about 5' from the water level to ground level with steel walls, so this type of boat would barely be crane launch-able without damage every time.

If you were able to get a wet mooring slot at a dock here (two year wait) your 12' wide boat would be restricted to an end slot as it would not play nice with other boats in a normal width dock slot. Wet mooring slots require auxiliary power to negotiate the turns and channels. Paddling and sailing from moorings is not an option.

Long and short of this is .... this is not a boat that would be welcome here. People designing yacht clubs are designing for a standard boat that this does not match in any way.

--
Bill

 

Beam Over All

Interesting information "bistros". As I said-within at least 1000 miles of me beam would generally not be a problem. And those that say its a problem on a course may be wrong:
--49er-beam 9' + 6' crew on wire= beam overall=15'
--Tornado-beam 10' + 6' crew on wire=boa=16'
--I-14-beam 6' + 6' on wire= boa=12'
--505 beam 6'2" +6' on wire=boa=12'2"
And thats only a few of the boats regularly racing with overall beam 12' or more when sailing....