16-18' "Sit-in" Planing Monohull ("Trapwing")

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by bistros

Doug's vision of the completed, functioning solution is very real to him - even before it is built. If you read his writing, he talks about details and components as if they are already working. To Doug, full scale details can be "proven" through models and talk in a forum. If Doug "thinks" about something, it is as real to him as if it has already been built.


This whole thread is sad and heartbreaking knowing that Doug will probably get exactly the results his quality of planning deserves. Overconfidence is no substitute for sloppy design. --
Bill

You are making some poor assumptions here. After reading posts by the Lord of All Foiling and Canting for, what, 7 years or so let me set you straight. There is no "design". There will be no "results". For all the hoohaw this dingbat has posted in all these years he has never posted any technical drawing done by his hand. From time to time he will glom onto someone else's work, but apparently he has no ability to do the work himself.

Ditto working out actual mechanisms. There is very little engineering thought put into any of his hairbrained ideas. He doesn't work anything out, and if you look closely at this crazed idea he has asked someone else on this thread to work out the calculations for him.

He tires to pass himself off as a successful model builder, but the people in the R/C sailing world hate him more than the people in the lifesize foiling world do, and that's saying a lot. Ask him how many paying customers have bought his fabulous models over the past 5 or 6 or 7 years.

The guy is no more credible than someone standing on a street corner screaming non-sequiturs at passing cars. Somehow I assume he spends time doing this as well.

If you try to make sense out of his actions you will soon be living out of a shopping cart and talking wildly to yourself about leeches draining off your brain pudding. That's when you will start understanding the babbling of His Lordship.

Originally Posted by bistros

To me once I see one important detail that fails the "sniff" test, and in this case there are several I conclude Doug is flying by the seat of his pants, without a detailed and well thought out design on paper and without any supporting documentation on any of the basic design elements.

I've been looking at a Chesapeake Light Craft design for a possible build project, and their design documentation (not build plans, just the manual) is close to 300 pages for a far less complicated design that Doug's Trapwing.

This whole thread is sad and heartbreaking knowing that Doug will probably get exactly the results his quality of planning deserves. --
Bill

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It is flat out amazing that you still don't get it! This thread was started to see what ideas people might come up with to produce the results I suggested in the very first post. Or to help improve the concept that I had. This is A DESIGN FORUM where new concepts should be able to be presented without a flurry of personal insult, inuendo and ridicule couched in poorly informed, deprecating language . Of course the design is not completed-if it was I would not have started this thread!
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This is from the FIRST post of the thread:

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

I have always wanted to sail a boat like a 2.4 Meter but with much higher performance. I suggested a concept years ago and wonder if anyone else has any thoughts on how to make something like this work or improve the concept.
The idea I had was to use a molded "wing" that would have ballast slide inside it to give large RM-similar to a two handed dinghy where one of the crew is on a trapeze. The ballast could be moved by hand, foot power or electrically. The boat might have a small fixed keel. The ends of the "wing" would be slightly larger in section to provide extra buoyancy. Each side of the wing would be supported by a "trapeze" wire making moving the whole wing(and the ballast inside it) fairly easy since it all moves horizontally.
The idea is to sit in the boat like a 2.4 meter but plane early and fast.
I'm interested in any ideas that would accomplish this in a relatively small POSSIBLY self righting monohull....

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Like I always have I will answer the comments in your post point for point-not for your benefit- but for my benefit and for the sake of anyone thinking about this idea.

No, what it says is that I'm not listening to comments that say the concept won't work: I KNOW IT WILL WORK(it already has worked!). But I was hoping that there might be ideas that might accomplish the same thing using the same basic princibles:a self righting ,planing(or very fast displ. hull) -MONOHULL. Instead, I was castigated for not changing the boat into a trimaran!!! I don't want this to be a trimaran- HOWEVER: several times I mentioned that the ends of the wing will have extra buoyancy that will probably take the form of buoyancy pods and/or wing tanks on an airplane wing.
There seems to be a concensus among two or three posters that if I don't agree with their ideas(to make the boat a trimaran) then my thinking is deficient. Oh well.....
And then there is that pesky, poorly informed ,judgemental, often wrong, unimaginative "engineer": you have not thought this thing out at all; you make assumptions that-more often than not-are wrong, you fail to see the forest for the trees and the "engineering" princibles you have attempted to apply either don't apply or are seriously shortsighted. More on this subject later.
And of all "critical" posters Steve Clark is a head above the rest with well informed and well thought out objections-for the most part.
And then Ostlind/"paul B": you don't have a clue.......

[Steve Clark]

Doug:
Have you examined the difference between the two arcs made by the trap wires and created a hull/ wing containment that resolves them and is capable of what can be significant upward shock loads ( smacking waves) and fore and aft shock loads ( smacking pilings.)
Have you also resolved the conflict between the leeward (still tight) trap wire and the mainsail. As I see it if the leeward wing is to not extend beyond the leeward gunwale, there will be no way to ease the mainsail very far without centering the wing and sacrificing righting moment first.
Maybe that's why it has to be self righting!

Finally, having spent most of my adult life handling narrow boats with movable hiking extensions that slide through about 7' and extend about 3' from each rail when centered, I can assure you that handling these boats near docks and floats is a real challenge and a limitation for the concept. In the case of the IC, athletic sailors can compensate for a lot of inconvenience for performance, but otherwise it constantly limits where and how we sail the boats.

The freeboard of the float, for example, makes a big difference in how you approach and depart. Things as simple as sailing by a motorboat to pick up a water bottle are easily twice as hard as they are in a normal trapeze dinghy.

If this boat is supposed to be a fast boat for geezers and the less mobile, you have to think carefully about how one gets aboard and how one maneuvers and docks. Outriggers of any kind make this more difficult than otherwise.

In all of this, based on my experience with International Canoes, will be harder with an above deck sliding outrigger than with any of the existing alternatives. As such, even though I believe such a system is possible to construct I don't believe it is practical or attractive. Therefore, I believe its merits are not worth further research.
SHC

Thanks for the comments Steve. I've given quite a bit of thought to how the trapeze wires work and to what extent they interfere with the main.
First, this was worked out on the models by:
1) having the trap wires go to the end of the racks,
2) having the whole ballast assembly mounted pivotably athwhartship,
3) having the trapwires adjustable,and
4) when the wing/rack is centered neither trap wire is tight but the wing/rack end is supported by shock cord-the whole thing is completly adjustable.
That's where we'll start on the full size boat.
As to shock loads on the full size boat-one idea is to have a line from the bow aft to the wing outboard rigged in such a way that the wing can move side to side but is reinforced against shock loading directly aft-as in a wing/wave impact. Need to look at athwhartship pivoting shock loads as well.
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This boat is conceived of to be easily beach sailed. In Florida, we have loads of launch areas for a boat like this. The docking thing will be a problem-no doubt-we'll just have to see what kind of work-arounds can be found with experience on the water.
As to the viability of the boat for disabled sailing-it appears to be suitable theoretically after talking to several disabled sailors. But that will need experience on the water to know for sure. I'm not at all sure that the Turbo version discussed in this thread will be ideal for that application but a couple of guys I talked to are excited by the idea. We'll see-soon I hope.
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I completely disagree with your conclusion that the problems you mention disqualify this concept from further development-but I very much appreciate your willingness to present them. Thanks. Only by studying, carefull design/building and testing a prototype can we know for sure. And, there are YEARS of model testing of boats that were skinny to wider boats that suggests that these problems can be solved.
Below is a "Trapeze Power Ballast System" schematic from the model site
and a couple of model pix:

Steve, are there any special design considerations incorporated in the seat system specifically to resist or guard against the effects of a wave impact with the crew at the end of the seat with the seat at max extension?
Is the seat adjustable fore and aft while the boat is sailing?

[Steve Clark]

Yes. Seat is contained within athartships rails that match the curvature of the seat. Attention is paid to containing the seat from popping vertically out of the carriage by details of the cariage end construction.
Yes, seat carriages are movable fore and aft, but usually not when under full load.
SHC

Problems yet to be solved as best I can tell:
1) Unstayed rig supporting the wing load with trapeze wires-final say-Ted Van Dusen-Van Dusen Racing Sailboats. Other input in the meantime welcome-as well as the consideration of a stayed mast and method for attaching stays to what? Main only upwind or main + jib?
2) Exact buoyancy pod volume at each end of wing.
3) Flange system for wing-must be bonded/glassed while still in mold. Method of wing construction. Engineering of wing.
4) Exact design of pivotable wing system mount-very low loading since trap wires support most of wing/ballast weight. Retains wing to boat and prevents unwanted movement while facillitating athwhartship sliding,pivoting and fore and aft movement. Method of adjusting trapeze bungee. Method of adjusting trapwire length. Decision on moving crew weight fore and aft and any tie in to fore and aft wing movement.
5) Foil assist- mainfoil only?

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

---
This boat is conceived of to be easily beach sailed. In Florida, we have loads of launch areas for a boat like this. The docking thing will be a problem-no doubt-we'll just have to see what kind of work-arounds can be found with experience on the water.
As to the viability of the boat for disabled sailing-it appears to be suitable theoretically after talking to several disabled sailors.

There were people laughing out loud at the club this weekend about this comment. People who have actual experience putting on regattas for disabled sailors were doubled over at the thought of a wheelchair-bound athlete towing their pseudo-keelboat trolly across the sand to launch.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

3) having the trapwires adjustable, Oh good, something else to add more complexity
and
4) when the wing/rack is centered neither trap wire is tight but the wing/rack end is supported by shock cord-the whole thing is completly adjustable. Yes, let's depend on shock cord for structural loading.


As to shock loads on the full size boat-one idea is to have a line from the bow aft to the wing outboard rigged in such a way that the wing can move side to side but is reinforced against shock loading directly aft-as in a wing/wave impact. Another "adjustable" line on each side of the boat? Nice. At what point does this clown car stop coughing up more and more complexity?

Don't forget to Copyright, Register, and Trademark all the newfangled adjustable guywires for your non-existent machine.

[Ulf]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

2) Exact buoyancy pod volume at each end of wing.

Short question, how can the boat be self-righting if the wing has buoyanvy pods on the ends?

Originally Posted by Ulf

Short question, how can the boat be self-righting if the wing has buoyanvy pods on the ends?

======================
Maybe I don't understand the question but the buoyancy of the pods coupled with the buoyancy of the wing and the RM generated by the keel would prevent most capsizes and would allow the boat to recover from past 90 degrees.The buoyancy in the pods + in the wing itself is greater than the weight of the lead by a fairly large margin. The boat with the keel will self-right from a knockdown.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

======================
Maybe I don't understand the question but the buoyancy of the pods coupled with the buoyancy of the wing and the RM generated by the keel would prevent most capsizes and would allow the boat to recover from past 90 degrees.

When the mast hits the water the buoyancy of "pods" and "wing" are working to turtle the boat.

So is the weight at the end of the plank.


Doesn't matter, this whole thread is an nothing but hot air.

Originally Posted by Paul B

When the mast hits the water the buoyancy of "pods" and "wing" are working to turtle the boat.

So is the weight at the end of the plank.


Doesn't matter, this whole thread is an nothing but hot air.

====================
Again, you prove that you don't have a clue-about this concept, the prototype or me. But most of all you don't understand the concept but you
"think" you do.
Viewed from aft ,the center of buoyancy of the centered wing or wing extended straight down(to what had been the lee side) with the lead at the bottom is acting to right the boat since the buoyancy of the wing + pods in pounds exceeds the lead weight in pounds by over twice. Couple that with the lead in the keel and the boat pops back up with no effort by the crew except,perhaps, letting the mainsheet go. The mast is sealed and the masthead has a float(endplate) to prevent turtling.
Some rough sketches soon.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

====================
Again, you prove that you don't have a clue-about this concept, the prototype or me. But most of all you don't understand the concept but you
"think" you do.
Viewed from aft ,the center of buoyancy of the centered wing or wing extended straight down(to what had been the lee side) with the lead at the bottom is acting to right the boat since the buoyancy of the wing + pods in pounds exceeds the lead weight in pounds by over twice. Couple that with the lead in the keel and the boat pops back up with no effort by the crew except,perhaps, letting the mainsheet go. The mast is sealed and the masthead has a float(endplate) to prevent turtling.
Some rough sketches soon.

What a joke. In what world do you plane along with the wing centered or all the way to leeward? When you're planing along with the wing extended to windward and crash more than 90 degrees the weight is high in the air and rolling the boat turtle.

With the masthead in the drink the pod and plank will be past the CB in the wrong direction as well. So according to the above statement, even the lead isn't going to help since the buoyancy will overcome that and you will turtle for sure.

Of course, in the hazy world this "boat" exists in, the operator would simply center the wing in mid-crash, or even drop it to leeward in that split second. That's a laugh.

I've been on everything from a Laser to a Hobie, J24, Olson 30, IOR yacht, MORC Boats, SC50s, and other boats that have put the mast in the water. Anyone who has knows what happens, and more than once I've had to tell people to not hang on the windward rail because they were helping to pull the boat over.

I would love to see Lard trapped in that skinny hull as the boat wipes out, then rolls over. I'm sure he would be frantically pushing buttons 'til the end.