these turbine alternaters are easy to make

[Boston]

I was thinking with all the alternative energy sources coming along that it would be an interesting study to consider how to apply one of em to this old Elco

what came to mind was the turbine wind generators
they are compact and work in light airs






these guys have all the bits and pieces
http://www.windbluepower.com/

so naturally I was doing some day dreaming about trying to figure out if a series of counter rotating sections could be aesthetically applied to this vessel

the system would be an augmentation to the onboard generators

a few considerations would be

spinning sections opposite one another you obviously get twice the speed in the alternators although you could just gear things and forgo the technical difficulties

placing them in a vertical position is self aligning to the wind
but placing them horizontally allows for counter rotating segments which give more power if aligned to the wind correctly

this is the power output of the unit that costs about $160.oo for the innards and you can junk yard all the housings you want ( they are everywhere )



counter rotating has the advantage of working with half the wind speed
and keeps the center of gravity low
also you can balance the torque out
but it would need to be on a swiveling base and have a wind vein like tail

the vertical unit needs no swiveling base and no tail but would need to have a larger diameter in order to "skinny" up the sections and keep the center of gravity low ( less aesthetically pleasing ) but may also be able to counter rotate as long as the rigs not to tall
both could be hidden under the canopy when in harbor and the canopy folded back when under way to allow the best air to the turbines

wind deflectors could enhance performance but would depend on were the units would be installed

pleasantly distracting considerations
any input is more than welcome

my first thoughts on this is that three vertical single generators could be placed behind the wheel house and under the canopy making for the most aesthetically appealing configuration that needs no directional adjustment or at least little as long as the wind is not directly ahead

my second thought is to have counter rotating sections spinning horizontally lengthwise in the same location on the boat
this would have obvious limitations based on its inability to orient itself to the best wind but allows for the most sections

another thought is to place six smaller vertical systems on the "roof" ( less visually appealing )

another would be to place two horizontal set ups on the "roof" and have them on a swiveling base ( way less visually appealing )

all units can easily be magnetically suspended for efficiency

have fun with it
B

oh Ill try and find the power requirement of this vessel in kilowatt hours at moderate hull speed and add it in when I find it
not sure yet what they had originally but a rebuild was fitted with two 230 hp diesels

[FAST FRED]

What would the operation plan be?? 1 hour of operation , anchor for a couple of weeks and go another hour?

FF

[Steve W]

I think it would be easier to hide a bunch of thin solar panels up on that flat top.Gorgeous boat by the way,what size is it?, it looks bigger than the 42.
Steve.

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by Steve W

I think it would be easier to hide a bunch of thin solar panels up on that flat top.Gorgeous boat by the way,what size is it?, it looks bigger than the 42.
Steve.

100% for solar panels mainly.
Roof is made for this, this is a real chance

Also, in my mind, this kind of "savonius" rotor are not very efficient unless they use sophisticated blades ?

Anyway, nice boat !

[Boston]

the plan is to augment the electrical generating capacity with a more environmentally friendly system
the top could certainly be converted to solar cells but they are pricey and heavy = more roll
the vawt turbines are cheep to build and cheep to repair also they are lots more efficient than normal wind generators and lightweight

that is the elco 57
one of my favorites and looks like its begging for solar cells and a few wind generators to augment the systems powered generators

Red you must have missed this part

the system would be an augmentation to the onboard generators

the generator pictured in the drive way is rated at 2,500 watts at
I think it was 50 amps

that boat is not really built for serious off shore time if you ask me
one good wave and all that glass is gone
most of the time a pleasure vessel is sitting in port anyway
so why not take advantage of a nice breeze and spin up some electricity
without making to much noise like typical wind generators

heres the 10KW low wind version



small enough to be gracefully hidden under the canopy and quiet
and
they are cheep and easy to build with the real trick in the magnetically suspended squirrel cage
with four or more of those over the aft cabin space you might get a free hour or two out of each cruse
and in a pinch
ye you could drift along knowing you weren't actually out of fuel

been doing some real day dreaming about that boat
wood only cost is about 15,000
engine and drive train and electronics ?
it would be twin electrics with twin diesel generators and about two dozen batteries

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by Boston

they are cheep and easy to build with the real trick in the magnetically suspended squirrel cage

Do you mean construction plan can be found easily and that they are not too sensitive to weight balancing of the turbine blades ?

[Boston]

you would need to balance the blades but they are easy as hell to build
its a squirrel cage mounted on a axis between a few ring magnets
easy as pie
a few roller bearings later to keep the thrust off the inside edge of the magnets and you got a wind generator

add those wind directors you see in some of the videos and you increase the efficiency by about another thirty percent
they are non directional so are unaffected by changes in wind direction that would virtually stop a conventional unit and you can get the high efficiency guts for the alternator housing at windblue or bluewind something like that
the link is in an earlier post
you can build a dam nice one for about five hundred if you wanted to go all out
and if you really wanted to get silly you could try the counter rotating one
but gearing that one up is a little more complex

there is also a tulip design
lots of room for creativity

there are videos of the hole process if you go look

way cheaper than solar cells and completely serviceable as well

[Boston]

so lets get things back on track
this old boat has some real appeal



its an old Elco 57

this ones been converted to diesel but the originals were electric

the thing is that most of the time pleasure boats just float in dock
so while they're there why not spin up some electricity and take that free hour or so of cruising
and have that luxury of never really running out of gas

so what alternative source could be used to juice this thing up when just sitting round
whats better solar wind or wave
my two cents is wind and after that its wind turbine generators
the suggestion of solar was made but that's expensive and not real serviceable ( also get dammaged in hail storms )

we need a few parameters to realize the scope of the need
the Warp 9 electric motor is a common cheep ( relatively ) conversion motor for do it yourself conversions of the chevy S10
hears the stats



so ideally you would want to run the thing at about 174 amps 72 volts
and for that boat you would need two motors
RR and Elco had several things in common one being they were both gutless wonders
the motor costs about $1800 each
the diesels that got put into the rebuild of the boat pictured were 230 hp each
at a cost of I think around 4,000 each but thats a guess
I didnt go look it up

there is another option of instead of two smaller motors one larger motor
the warp 11 but that thing just eats amperage and its $3500



so Red has got a point about power requirements
but
every little bit helps and the less the generator is running when tied the better

generator
sticky question and I need to go do some math on that
will post the generator requirements for the two warp 9 motor option

[Boston]

ok let me run myself through the hole thing since its been a long time
watts divided by volts = amps

72x340=24,480 unbelievable watts
a house typically has a 350+ amp service so this motor used about the same juice as a typical home

so I have 24,480 watts
I need 1 horsepower to create about 630 watts pr/hr or .6 Kwh ( yes I had to look that up )
so 24,480 w / 630 = 40 HP generator

and as it happens a nice $7000 55hp diesel generator can be had on line that would run this motor at peak draw
although Im positive I could build my own lots cheaper ( thats a hole other thread )

but for battery considerations
Ild like to then consider that Ill be running under batteries at peak efficiency as a matter of course and not blasting over the bay
so my amps at peak efficiency are 174
and my usage is 12,528 watts/hr on each motor
with a torque of 25 ft/lb at 3150 rpm

so before I go much farther I need to rmember a few things about batteries
there is a resistance to any electrical system that dictates how fast I can draw juice from it or through it

so if Im remembering this correctly its not just how many batteries I have but how fast I can draw em down
boils down to the slower I draw from a battery the better amp hours Ill get out of it

so I think a typical duty cycle of say 4 hours sounds about right for a deep cell battery ( that was a pure guess )

so 12 volts and 108 amps thats 27 amps pr hour and I end up with one seriously dead battery why do I remember being able to only draw about maybe eight amps per hour with out seriously screwing up a battery
must have guessed wrong on the duty cycle

so lets go with an 8 hour duty cycle just for fun
and say I dont want to drain the batteries down bellow say 25%

that gives me say 81 available amps over 8 hours or 10.1 amp/hrs pr battery at 12 volts or 1.68 amps/hr at 72 volts
and my motor uses 174 peak efficiency amps/hr at 72 volts

so I need 103 batteries at about $250 each to go for eight hours ($25,750)

if I want 8 hours I need 103 batteries and I think I just sunk the boat
if I want 4 hours its 52 per motor
two hours and its 26 or ($6438) per motor

( there is someone in there with a pitchfork waiting to skewer me for some error Im about to or have already made )

so how long does it take to charge 52 12volt 108amp/hr batteries
( the point Red was getting after )

so now lets consider max efficiency of 174 amps and a few hours cruse time
once again just for hemorrhaging cash like a mad man and forgetting to park my bar in the garage

if the vawt generator is of the 2,500 watt 50 amp variety
which is about five feet tall and just happens to fit under the canopy of that beautiful floating brothel I'ld love to call home

and the engines use a ttl of 12,528 w/h over a period of 4 hours I end up needing
50.1Kwh and 696 amps at 72v or 4176 amps at 12 volts
assuming 100% efficiency and Ild be feeling lucky to get 80%

a few things about charging

I think there is a minimum charge that unless I hit it there will basically be no charging at all
prety sure its about ten amps on something like a car battery so its bound to be similar on a deep cell

anyone know how efficiently a battery charges
cause thats going to seriously effect the numbers

basically I have for each 50 amp generator call it four batteries I can charge if the wind is cooperating in say a three or four hour period of time
three generators going full tilt thats 12 batteries at a crack and I have 52 pr motor
104/12=8.6 call it 9
9x4 hours per set of 12 =

and the answer to Reds question is

36 hours of continuous charging to go for 4

assuming 104 batteries and dam impossible efficiency
you could probably double that time and get it about right

thats not so bad given Im just a day tripper and probably would be sitting round most of the time anyway

course I spent
26000 on batteries ( not much lowering that cost )
1600 each on motors ( I could get em used for less than half that )
7000 on a generator and I need two of em 14000 ( I could build em from two ( BMW R45 < 1000 each ) engines converted to alcohol and pushing a series of alternators way cheaper than that )
1500 ttl on 3 wind turbines ( and Ild probable double that to six and make em retractible off the roof for cruising )

so I could do it for
26000 on batteries
1600 for two warp9 motors
7000 for two BMW R45 motorcycle engine generators able run independently from the batteries indefinitely (converted to alcohol )
3000 for six 2,500 watt 50amp wind turbine generators with a recharge time of 36 hours in a 20 knot wind
-----------------------------------
= say 40,000 with all the bits and pieces

as aposed to maybe 12000 on a pair of diesel engines
and very little chance of explosion
but 2000 a fill up

so
whats the cost of diesel at the dock and how long does it last in the tank
given that if you work it out I could run the screw at 89% generator 11% batteries with a good wind indefinitely on a long haul
or go for short hops and hardly buy fuel at all other than once a year or so when Ild take her out for a spin

thing is you'd end up sleeping with batteries piled around you cause you be hard pressed to find a spot for 104 of em
course its about 2250 bucks to fill the 750 gallon tank at 3 bucks a gal for diesel and its only going up

next question is whats the speed of the boat at 25 ft/lb and 3150 shaft rpm before gearing pr motor

[Kay9]

Dont forget that the batts have a max 5 year life span. So thats 26000 / 5 years of life so its 5200 per year in batt operating cost.

Ive done this math over and over and over, on everything from my motorhometo my 40' commercial fishing boat. Its just a LOT more cost effective to go with diesels.

K9

[Boston]

local guy owns a auto parts place up the road Ive done lots of biz with says he would get me the batteries half price if I buy em all at once
basically wholesale

I wonder what 25 ft/lbs at 3150 revs equates to in terms of screw power
also wonder what the rebuild screw speed is at cruse

[masalai]

The only way I can justify batteries is to say "house supply" where the draw rate is more genteel... The electric drive uses batteries as a buffer whilst the diesel gensets catch up with load and a "silly?" attitude where I do not want holes through the hulls below the waterline - - The electric drives are a pair of "outboards" - Torqeedo - that have a peak draw of 4000W at 48v - about 166A for the pair, but normal draw at restrained cruise for 4knots seems nearer a third that in calm conditions... My boat weighs in at 4800kg or less and is quite slippery with long hulls for narrow beam somewhere around 1:15 beam:length ratio.... Batteries are the most difficult and expensive part as the draw rate can be very high (damaging to most) and duration is brief as I think I understand a C20 rated battery means something like 50% use in 20 hours - - WTF - next to useless for reliable life in service - So it has to be specialised batteries like can be found on golf buggies or indoor use forklifts or the GM volta car.... "millions" of AA sized cells in a package are relatively light, can charge and discharge at high rates OK but cost (need a printing press or access to the spare sheets from uncle Ben Bs printing press)

Electric drive motors can deliver near full torque at zero revs and up and the Torqeedo claim the 4 R series equate to a 10hp outboard in thrust??? - the peak revs at the screw are about 1200 (from my failing memory).... remember most motors/generators loose for a delivery around 0.8 - is the word "factor" used there somewhere?...

I am closely watching battery and PV panel developments and 10 "Sharp" 200W panels and spiral wound agm batteries are my present standards markers... Gassing is a concern as I have seen a couple of small H2 explosions on boats and fear same greatly...

Oh - and a very pretty boat - something like a "Brisbane bay boat" used for fishing then converted to leisure cruiser...

[Boston]

those azipod drives are really slick

having worked the numbers on the two Warp9 motors I wanna run em on one Warp11

260 amps at 72 volts and 1976 rpm producing 70 ft lbs at its most efficient

for eight hours Ild need
260x8hrs= 2080 amps at 72volts over eight hours
batteries allow 1.68 amps per hour at 72 volts for 8 hours
or 13.5 amps at 72 volts over eight hours at 75% discharge

at 75% discharge in 8 hours
2080/13.5=154 batteries to go eight hours no charge at 70 ft/lbs and 1979 rpm
as apposed to
206 batteries to go eight hours no charge at 50 ft/lbs and 3147 rpm

sticky thing is the rpm
when geared down things look like the warp11 is the winner
with a 3/1 ratio for the warp 9 yielding aprox 150 ft/lbs
and 2/1 ratio for the warp11 yielding aprox 140 ft/lbs

150/206=.728 ft/lbs per battery
140/154=.909 ft/lbs per battery

next thing to think of is that this boat was converted to two 230 hp diesels which at 2500 rpm produce about 600 ft/lbs torque max
if I remember there is some kind of funky difference between the power comparisons of internal combustion and electric

an electric warp9 28 hp motor is used by Chevy to convert there S10 to an electric from a 190 hp internal combustion engine
which is were this hole thing started from

Im also seeing the range of lifetime for the batteries varying from 3-5 hundred cycles up to 15 hundred cycles
anything from 4-10 years although Ive never seen a battery last me longer than about 5

[masalai]

http://www.torqeedoaustralia.com/Tor...alia/News.html "...The Cruise 4.0 R redefines the standards for electric propulsion. It converts supplied battery power better into propulsion than any other outboard. Now, users get more power and range from the same battery supply.

The new, powerful Cruise model runs on 48 V. Offering 97 kg of thrust, the Cruise 4.0 R has the thrust equivalent to a 9.9 hp internal combustion outboard. More importantly, the propulsive power, measured as speed times thrust after all losses including propeller losses, compares to an 8 hp gas outboard in displacement mode.

"When talking about electric propulsion for boats, battery power is always the limiting factor. Therefore it's paramount to use the limited battery power as efficiently as possible," said Torqeedo managing partner Christoph Ballin.

"For electric outboards, overall efficiencies range between 20% for trolling motors and up to 35% for stronger electric propulsion motors. The overall efficiencies for internal combustion outboards are significantly lower than that," said Ballin. "We don't know of any other outboard that even gets close to the efficiency levels we offer...."

[Boston]

the gorilla of the battery world



3300 cycles 10 year life grantee 15 expected weighs 424 lbs costs ~$1200 each
8V
20 hour discharge available amps 820 41 pr/hr
12 hour discharge available amps 713 59.5 pr/hr
8 hour discharge available amps 640 80 pr/hr

or 8.9 amp/hrs each at 72 volts and 8 hour discharge time
71.2 amps at 72 volts at 8 hours
motor wants 260 amps at peak efficiency for 8 hours thats 2080 amps/71.2-= 29 batteries
call it 30 batteries drawn to 50% as each battery actually holds 1156 amp/hrs at 8v
$ 36,000 for eight hours no charge
or 16 tanks of diesel at 3 a gallon and a 750 gallon tank
over ten years assuming the price of diesel remains the same as it is today ( fat chance )

on a typical deep cell battery the following seems to be the general consensus

A battery "cycle" is one complete discharge and recharge cycle. It is usually considered to be discharging from 100% to 20%, and then back to 100%. However, there are often ratings for other depth of discharge cycles, the most common ones are 10%, 20%, and 50%. You have to be careful when looking at ratings that list how many cycles a battery is rated for unless it also states how far down it is being discharged. For example, one of the widely advertised telephone type (float service) batteries have been advertised as having a 20-year life. If you look at the fine print, it has that rating only at 5% DOD - it is much less when used in an application where they are cycled deeper on a regular basis. Those same batteries are rated at less than 5 years if cycled to 50%. For example, most golf cart batteries are rated for about 550 cycles to 50% discharge - which equates to about 2 years.

Battery life is directly related to how deep the battery is cycled each time. If a battery is discharged to 50% every day, it will last about twice as long as if it is cycled to 80% DOD. If cycled only 10% DOD, it will last about 5 times as long as one cycled to 50%. Obviously, there are some practical limitations on this - you don't usually want to have a 5 ton pile of batteries sitting there just to reduce the DOD. The most practical number to use is 50% DOD on a regular basis. This does NOT mean you cannot go to 80% once in a while. It's just that when designing a system when you have some idea of the loads, you should figure on an average DOD of around 50% for the best storage vs cost factor. Also, there is an upper limit - a battery that is continually cycled 5% or less will usually not last as long as one cycled down 10%. This happens because at very shallow cycles, the Lead Dioxide tends to build up in clumps on the the positive plates rather in an even film. The graph above shows how lifespan is affected by depth of discharge. The chart is for a Concorde Lifeline battery, but all lead-acid batteries will be similar in the shape of the curve, although the number of cycles will vary.

according to the graph Ild get about 600 cycles at 75% with a regular deep cell battery



the left side represents cycles the lower represents % drain

Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need.
Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The golf car battery is quite popular for small systems and RV's. The problem is that "golf car" refers to a size of battery (commonly called GC-2, or T-105), not the type or construction - so the quality and construction of a golf car battery can vary considerably - ranging from the cheap off brand with thin plates up the true deep cycle brands, such as Crown, Deka, Trojan, etc. In general, you get what you pay for.