New propulsion sytems for ships

Originally Posted by kistinie

Li bat are dangerous, explode and burn, just like fuel can.

Wrong.... they can, they must not, and usually dont.
What should i dig deeper ?
There is no hydrogen going out of lead batteries when charging them ?
Not enough to be worth talking


You certainly can help

Might be, but I mentioned earlier, do´nt have the time!

I understand, you do´nt like to read the articles I pointed towards, in deep. As you do´nt like to pay some 4000€ for a inverter, but thats the price, love it or lleave it.
Your dream of environmental friendly energy is childish, sorry. There is only one source of environmental friendly energy available to propel ships, and even that has a Laaarge footprint on the negative side, wind.
Produce the sails, rig, mast, winches, ropes and cleats and calculate what you have done to our world. (just the mast, usually AL, has a energy balance to fear, and is affordable only due to the massively subsidized energy for production worldwide).
But, stop... I do´nt let you free now...
Now you calculate the engine installation (found in nearly every sailboat), and you bear in mind that the production of a 500hp engine is not ten times the environmental impact as a 50hp, it´s closer to twice.
If you count gram per gram and penny per penny, you´ll be surprised, that a clever designed Motor cruiser after several (say 25) years of blue water cruising, has had a smaller footprint than a sailing vessel of same displacement!!??!!
Now you might escape my claws.

I know that does´nt fit into some religious warriors world view, but we have to live with the fact that our old ic-engine is the most environmental friendly propulsion available for boats at present.

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Richard, you mix to world with different needs

Big boat, 500hp, are for 30 to 100 passengers at sea ? (Or a big one, but cleared that option of debat)
In this case fuel is needed for the moment, hybrid or not, 100% and i regret it, trust
On a river, lake, certainly not. Electric choice is very probably much better.

For light boats light multihulls, and soon i think, solar boats windmill boat, under 50 feet, electricity and a light DC generator is a valid and tested solution, used by charter boats for years now.
Windmill boat will clear the sailing boat from all these ropes, mast and pulley that had bothered any sail lover at least on day in his life :-)
I will probably still love classic sails, i admit, but both will be here and fine to move for low cost !


Till this moment lets look at the real world, a charter boat in hot humid country by example,

Ask Serge what he thinks of his DC brushed motors in his cat ?

Fuel use was lowered at 75% of previous year, doing professional charter, mixing battery and generator motoring
75% less fuel ? This talks to you ?
A good sailor that know how to sail + a simple DC motor = 75% more efficient than fuel.

This means that 100% reduction is possible with better efficiencies

http://www.captainchericroisiere.nc/

Originally Posted by kistinie

Richard, you mix to world with different needs

Big boat, 500hp, are for 30 to 100 passengers ? Nonsense, who said that?


For light boats light multihulls, and soon i think windmill boat, under 50 feet
electricity and a light DC generator is a valid solution used by charter boats for years now.
Windmill boat will clear the sailing boat from all these ropes, mast and pulley.
Nonsense!

you should ask Serge what he thinks of his DC brushed motors in his cat ? no, you should provide the proof
Fuel use was lowered at 75% of previous year, doing professional charter, mixing battery and generator motoring
75% less fuel ? This talks to you ?
Ja, Nonsense again!

http://www.captainchericroisiere.nc/

The ability to read is a mighty supporter, and sometimes can help to keep people on your side, instead of fighting windmills.

And compare apples and apples, who said anything about passenger transport?

Your "professional charter" boat has lowered it´s fuel consumption by 75%? I doubt that!
And the genny is running on fresh water? The inverters did not cost about 1000€ per kw ? The batteries have been for free? The installation was a gift?
The installation you mentioned has been at least!!! twice the cost of a classical Diesel propulsion. period
You would´nt post such nonsense if you would have followed my first advice, to read the articles I provided, So, why do´nt you do that? Is it your intention to rankle with me?

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by apex1

Your "professional charter" boat has lowered it´s fuel consumption by 75%? I doubt that!
And the genny is running on fresh water? The inverters did not cost about 1000€ per kw ? The batteries have been for free? The installation was a gift?
The installation you mentioned has been at least!!! twice the cost of a classical Diesel propulsion. period

When Serge writes fuel is down 3/4, why would he lie ? Stay fair please.
Serge is respected sailor, love his solution, clients too, and he will never turn back to IC motor for propulsion.

motor controller SEVCON or KELLY and many others : 5 kw : 450 $ each
motor Agni 700 $ each
belt, bearing, propeller : 450 each (800 x2 for a simple pump jet instead of 1 propeller)
Batteries : 2000$
management, wires, 500$

220AC/48 dc group : 4000$ (price can go down on this)

So ? Verdict

this is more expensive than 2 inboards ?
Ah !
What a joke !
it is two times cheaper rather !

Maintenance ? on electricity !
What another joke...Nothing but drop of oil on motor bearings...and gentle cleaning

Originally Posted by kistinie

Serge is respected sailor, and love his solution, will never turn back

motor controller SEVCON or KELLY and many others : 5 kw : 450 $ each
motor Agni 700 $ each
belt, bearing, propeller : 450 each (800 x2 for a simple pump jet instead of 1 propeller)
Batteries : 2000$
management, wires, 500$

220AC/48 dc group : 4000$ (price can go down on this)

So ? Verdict

this is more expensive than 2 inboards ?
Ah !
What a joke !
Maintenance ? on electricity !
What another joke...Nothing but drop of oil on motor bearings...

Ja, again you do´nt know what you´re talking about.
Motor controller is´nt a inverter, pricing you show is Wal Mart level, and the Battery you expect to live forever? Make your homeworks, than teach the Professionals.
I do my business since 42 years and installed "alternative" systems already 30 years ago. Beg your Pardon, you are by no means a adequate person to discuss with, and you are too stubborn to learn! You have given proof of that now almost ten times! Read post #206 in the other thread you messed up, gain your knowledge and show, the audience can take you for serious.
This is the last reply to any of your posts, cos´ you´re just kidding and not willing to learn.
Richard

[kistinie]

Wal mart level ?

SEVCON and KELLY ?
http://www.sevcon.com/
http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/

They will smille reading you and won't find you friendly !

All the equipment listed is industrial product made for electric cars, electric boats, and forklift lifters
By exemple, lead batteries last 10 years if well cared and de-sulphated by 2 MHz impulsions 60V for 1 batt 12v. Yes works great, old submarine technic to protect batteries

Amateur : A guy who loves what he does.
Doesn't mean incompetent

PRO:
Make his leaving with what he does.
Doesn't mean competent.

So as i do not know what i an talking about, and you do, we all want to listen to your solution for my 40 ft 3 tons trimaran, if it is not this one (or a clone) divided by 2 as i am a trimaran ?
What is your solution ?
What is a good new propulsion/ electric energy storage you pay for in 2009 ?
(i need electricity for Weather report, PC, AIS, RADAR, IRRIDIUM, GPS, LIGHT, MUSIC)

A flywheel ,not for me i don't like infra sound and noise in general
Ethanol. No, in France we drink it rather
windmill, yes but not the money for it
maybe later will pull of the sails of my boat for a new wind propulsion

Sorry i did not see where you wanted to take me.
Really sorry i do not understand you.

[sigurd]

LiFePo don't explode. 1$/wh 2000 cycles.

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by sigurd

LiFePo don't explode. 1$/wh 2000 cycles.

2000 average , Cool !
And
certainly much more with smart chargers, balancing cell groups, charging separately elements.
and also by respecting the technical need of the baterry when using them

Lead battery sucked dry often last 4 to 10 time less... than a respected one

Electric recumbent trike based car used Lipo with great success for several years
Manufacturers can do long life batteries if they decide and if we are careful too in our way using it

And all type of lithium based batteries exit
All are not equivalent
All are not the sames

Look at these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3o_2mwRPdw

[rasorinc]

I post this just for general information. Rolls/Surretti batteries are rated the best for Marine workboats. http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by rasorinc

I post this just for general information. Rolls/Surretti batteries are rated the best for Marine workboats. http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/

7 to 10 Year... Warranty...

Life: 15 years ?

Feeding us with breakable toys, manufacturers made us forget an object can live 10, 20 , 30 , 50 years.



But we must admit also that sea environment is far from friendly for our electric and mechanical equipments !

[rasorinc]

warranty info. http://www.surrette.com/content/marine-battery-warranty

Originally Posted by rasorinc

I post this just for general information. Rolls/Surretti batteries are rated the best for Marine workboats. http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/

They are the best Stan.

[Boston]

apex
based on post 526
the embodied energy of a wooden ship traditional build with cloth sails and natural fiber lines wood masts and booms is not so bad
its when you get into composites and aluminum that you start the downward spiral
eventually I think we will get back to basics when it comes to transoceanic cargo
once the world comes to its senses about the hole carbon pollution thing

[rasorinc]

apex1, Yes they are the best although a bit pricy $$$ for the small boater.
Great warrantys--up to 120 months (prorated )after the 1st 3 years for their top of the line. stan

Originally Posted by rasorinc

apex1, Yes they are the best although a bit pricy $$$ for the small boater.
Great warrantys--up to 120 months (prorated )after the 1st 3 years for their top of the line. stan

I used them in a wind power backup installation for a Holiday Resort on Bali to cover peak demand and grid failure, good value. Will use them again in my own house if I do´nt go for Redox Flow battery, not shure.
Regards
Richard