New propulsion sytems for ships

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

.....at least a centuries worth of shale , that refines to oil in a very clean process.

I believe if you do a little research you find that extraction of oil from shale nor tar sands to be that 'clean'.

And the coal supply in this country is still greater. We just need to burn it cleaner.

[FAST FRED]

I believe if you do a little research you find that extraction of oil from shale nor tar sands to be that 'clean'.

It seems to be fine in Canada , clean enough to produce huge volumes and sell it south.

Perhaps we could get some immigrants from the north to show us how its done.

Remember nothing is "clean " enough for the wackos that think mowing the lawn is a form of TORTURE.

FF

[brian eiland]

...some excerpts...

Both mining and processing of tar sands involve a variety of environmental impacts, such as global warming and greenhouse gas emissions, disturbance of mined land; impacts on wildlife and air and water quality. The development of a commercial tar sands industry in the U.S. would also have significant social and economic impacts on local communities. Of special concern in the relatively arid western United States is the large amount of water required for tar sands processing; currently, tar sands extraction and processing require several barrels of water for each barrel of oil produced, though some of the water can be recycled.

About two tons of tar sands are required to produce one barrel of oil. Roughly 75% of the bitumen can be recovered from sand
http://ostseis.anl.gov/guide/tarsands/index.cfm
_________________________________________________

July 11, 2008: Middle East oil running dry? Looking for a new source of energy? John Vidal takes you step-by-step through how to extract oil from Canada's tar sands, destroying habitat, polluting water and increasing carbon emissions as you go
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...ture=335405296
_________________________________________________

Large amounts of energy are needed to convert tar. Extracting bitumen from sands and upgrading it to synthetic crude oil may be up to five times more greenhouse gas intensive than conventional crude oil extraction — in the absence of ways to capture those gases and store them underground. Another worry is the damage caused to local ecosystems by such activity.
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/20...oit-tar-sands/
_________________________________________________

According to the Journal: "heavy oil has big economic and environmental drawbacks. It costs more to produce and takes more energy to turn into gasoline than traditional light oil. Recovering and processing Fort McMurray's heavy crude releases up to three times as much greenhouse gas as producing conventional crude. And upgrading it into refined products, such as gasoline or diesel, will require a gigantic investment to retool global refineries."

The extraction process is so labor intensive and requires so much heat, in order to extract the oil from the tar sand that "Total briefly floated the idea of building a nuclear-power plant" in Fort Mc Murray.
http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=30703


Those are just a few references if you had bothered to look Fred....there are a LOT more

[Boston]

its unfortunate that folks are so stuck on carbon based fuels
fuel cells photoelectric wind hydro tidal piezoelectric even the potential of the magnetosphere or the Shewman gap should be considered
the posibilities are endless
there is no limiting factor but the imagination
other than the limits placed on us all by those with a vested interest in the status-quo
oil and fossil fuels people just cant see not burning every last drop before we find another solution
stands to reason since they make money off not making positive change

at the moment I am involved in discussions concerning using enzimes from the digestive tracts of sea urchins to break down harvested seaweed from basic starches into constituent sugars so that it can be used as a feedstock in alcohol production
also there is talk of using basic sewer enzymes readily available and cheep ( septic system cleaners ) in the celulitic process that enables basic yard waste to be used as a feed stock with an increase in yield of up to 30% over more conventional feedstock's like corn or even sugar beets
and
strains of yeast are being developed that are highly alcohol resistant makeing the process even more efficient

there is lots coming down the pipes and fast
the day of corrupt oil and dirty coal are numbered

cheers
B

[FAST FRED]

"other than the limits placed on us all by those with a vested interest in the status-quo
oil and fossil fuels people just cant see not burning every last drop before we find another solution
stands to reason since they make money off not making positive change "

The ONLY vested interest is the CONSUMER , who is looking for energy with the lowest cost.

IF "alternate energy" ever becomes competative , due to the price of it falling , or the price of oil , coal and nuke rising , it will be the Utopia yoy dream of.

Till then its just another political hole tax payers cash is dumped into , for political profit , and advertising cash.

FF

[Boston]

the only vested interest is actually survival of the ecosystem = survival of us all

its the perceived vested interest of the consumer foisted on the populous by co2 laden oil and sulfur rich coal investors that is confusing the solution

97% remains a consensus

[rasorinc]

Natural gas, which is abundant might be the next best in between step before
electricity takes over.

[FAST FRED]

"97% remains a consensus"

Actually the water vapor (clouds) is even a higher percentage of "greenhouse gas".

The tiny percentage of CO2 that exists is a FOLLOWER of climate changes (4 Billion years of changes).

What makes this particular instant in time the EDEN that must be maintained , or "we will all die" is beyond me.

I would much prefer wine from Greenland to 2 miles of ICE on the major cities.

100 years of "Globalony warming" raised the temp .6 of a degree,, LOST in the last decade , back to square 1..

Global warming is a political creation , with Junk Science and the ease with which the media can control the emotional masses on display.

Latest flash , the Ice monitors of the arctic had a "glitch" of a mere 190% and failed to notice ice addition the size of CALIFORNIA!!!

FF

[Guillermo]

I'd appreciate very much if you discuss about GW on the proper thread, not here. Thanks.

[Boston]

agreed

Ras
natural gas is a great go between
we should be focusing on it till better solutions present themselves

ps
the US has huge reserves of natural gas which makes it even better as it need not be shipped long distances

[kistinie]

Or do cooking ?

Is is realistic to use hydrogen gas from battery park to run very small slow motor big inertia doing amps
Is there enough gas ?

[sigurd]

I don't know, but if it was I imagine lead acid beatteries would be very dangerous.

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by sigurd

I don't know, but if it was I imagine lead acid beatteries would be very dangerous.

Oh ! Yes they are very dangerous !

2 explosions in 20 years. Very impressive, ultra rapid explosion, very short, you ear birds, covered with sulphuric acid. A fast shower all your clothes off is ok most of the time.
a bad moment
first cause was grinding 2 metres from a car battery charging in open space
second was an accidental short circuit with a tool, close to a truck battery also charging but at idle.

There is a lot of hydrogen in open batteries !

A gold mine maid of lead ?
a small cell to get water and amps...slowly ?

I think you better study that subject in deep kistinie.
Sigurd, LI batteries can explode under certain circumstances.

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by apex1

I think you better study that subject in deep kistinie.
Sigurd, LI batteries can explode under certain circumstances.

Regards
Richard

Li bat are dangerous, explode and burn, just like fuel can.
origin is different
As far as i know

First and most usual origin is overcharging
So bat now have regulator, balancer, and serial port to talk

second origin can be a fabrication default and water contamination on open products
Disastrous effect
Effect of water seems to be this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7...eature=related

Then what ? explodes ? If yes, a strong fused box is not adapted , but rather only burn i guess? Do we Need more than a box and fire extinguisher ?
idiot-proof lithium batteries ? Yes would be better. i agree

But lithium is not compulsory, lead is fine and do nothing bad when folded just stop and gets empty, acid get diluted and mixed with salt

Study in deep ? Go back to school !
Business as usual
yes what seems wired to you ?
What should i dig deeper ?
There is no hydrogen going out of lead batteries when charging them ?
A cell need more pressure of hydrogen
Not enough amp ?
Acid is bad
hydrogen need to be pure
will fly away as it is a mini particle and go across any porous object
you would rather run an hydrogen motor ?
if you know basis about that

I know almost nothing on hydrogen but

2 H plus 1 0 gives water and electricity !


Help us ! Tell us what you have in mind ?
You certainly can help