New propulsion sytems for ships

[FAST FRED]

What is the contact for the mfg?

Their stock should go up thousands of % If they can keep the Chinese from stealing the tech.

FF

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

US researchers say they have invented a lightweight paper battery that could serve as an enhanced power storage device for the next generation of consumer electronic devices.

The battery produces electricity in the same way as the conventional lithium-ion batteries that power so many of today's gadgets, but all the components have been incorporated into a lightweight, flexible sheet of paper.

I just posted this in the "Off Topic" section before seeing this thread, sounds too good to be true don't it?

[JonathanCole]

Originally Posted by kach22i

I just posted this in the "Off Topic" section before seeing this thread, sounds too good to be true don't it?

You have to look at what is not said in this information about the paper batteries. For instance, the specific energy density (wattHour/Kg) or the number of deep discharge cycles possible. Also, lithium batteries w/carbon electrodes are known to be prone to explosion when the case is overheated or breached. If you want the state of the art of batteries, with one minute charge times, very long life(15-20 years), high power and energy density and safe for the user and the environment, they are already here.
http://altairnano.com/markets_amps.html
These batteries will be used in my solar catamaran. They will also make plug-in hybrid automotive vehicles practical. Widespread adoption of electric boats is now just a matter of time.

[charmc]

Originally Posted by JonathanCole

You have to look at what is not said in this information about the paper batteries. For instance, the specific energy density (wattHour/Kg) or the number of deep discharge cycles possible. Also, lithium batteries w/carbon electrodes are known to be prone to explosion when the case is overheated or breached. If you want the state of the art of batteries, with one minute charge times, very long life(15-20 years), high power and energy density and safe for the user and the environment, they are already here.
http://altairnano.com/markets_amps.html
These batteries will be used in my solar catamaran. They will also make plug-in hybrid automotive vehicles practical. Widespread adoption of electric boats is now just a matter of time.

I'm surprised that you sound a bit contentious, Jonathan. The market for improved batteries is vast, and all approaches should be welcomed. I did note what was said by Altairnano, which includes a significant number of future tense statements. They are quite clear in stating that they believe they have an extremely beneficial technology ... that is still early in the development stage.

From the statements of the Rensselaer researchers that Brian posted, it appears they are also using nanotechnology. Each of these approaches is exciting, because battery development is currently (Ouch! Sorry 'bout that. ) the major holdback to electrically powered personal transportation. Motor and PV cell efficiency has increased dramatically in the past 30 years or so. Smaller, lighter, more powerful batteries should enable a huge jump forward in applications.

[JonathanCole]

Originally Posted by charmc

I'm surprised that you sound a bit contentious, Jonathan. The market for improved batteries is vast, and all approaches should be welcomed. I did note what was said by Altairnano, which includes a significant number of future tense statements. They are quite clear in stating that they believe they have an extremely beneficial technology ... that is still early in the development stage.

From the statements of the Rensselaer researchers that Brian posted, it appears they are also using nanotechnology. Each of these approaches is exciting, because battery development is currently (Ouch! Sorry 'bout that. ) the major holdback to electrically powered personal transportation. Motor and PV cell efficiency has increased dramatically in the past 30 years or so. Smaller, lighter, more powerful batteries should enable a huge jump forward in applications.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to be contentious. Just stating facts. The researchers have not provided enough information to evaluate the energy density of their paper battery. In addition, they have not yet determined how to manufacture the battery cost-effectively.

AltairNano, is already manufacturing batteries. I am in contact with them and have enough information to see that they have a breakthrough product. It is still very expensive but with increases in volume the price is bound to come down. Just imagine a no maintenance deep cycle battery with 10000-15000 discharge cycles. That is exceptionally long life. Plus they are much safer than other technologies. And also very low profile. Not quite as flat as paper but still very flat.

[charmc]

Jonathan,

I guess I mistook your enthusiasm for contention. I agree that AltairNano's battery sounds innovative enough to be exciting. They are further along if they are producing their 1st gen product(limited quantities, OK efficiency, very costly). I'd like to see more data beyond the theory; especially application data: dimensions, details of voltages, amp/hours, etc.

The "sheet of paper" concept is, IMHO, a hook to generate interest in the technology the Rensselaer researchers have developed. They do mention that the power output is tiny, and sheeets neeed to be stacked to reach useable outputs.

What is most interesting to me is the application of innovative concepts to a mature product whose development curve was nearly flat until a few years ago. Compact, highly efficient PV cells and motors are waiting to be used in conjunction with small powerful batteries. Auto and marine engineers have said for several years that the bottleneck in practical eletric power for personal transportation was the batteries. Sounds like the problem might be solved in not too many years. FastFred made a good point: this might be like investing in Microsoft in its early days.

[Pericles]

Brian,

This site may interest you.

http://www.electric-boat-association...duct-guide.htm

The Thames Electric Launch Company have a range of compact saildrives rated up to 4 Kw at 48 volts.

http://www.thameselectric.com/

Best wishes,

Pericles

[Kiteship]

Originally Posted by tom kane

No we don`t need sails.New Zealand is opening up massive oil reserves in our southern oceans,we will sell you some oil at a reasonable price.You will have to promise that you won`t object to our Neuclear Power plants when we want to build them,when the oil runs out.

I thought New Zealand was a Nuclear Free zone. Are you planning to put these nuclear power plants offshore, then, in international waters?

Seriously, have there been proven reserves of oil found in the Southern Ocean? How much and where? Thanks!

KiteShip

[Guillermo]

Interesting paper in kite propulsion:
http://www.icmrt07.unina.it/Proceedings/Papers/c/26.pdf


More:
The Cousteau Society insists in developing the Turbosail concept. Calypso II and a merchant ship seem to be on their way:
http://www.cousteaukids.org/ships/calypso2.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...v93/ai_3828115

[brian eiland]

This new Kite technology sure seems to make the older Turbo idea seem a little dated, particularly when you consider the fact that the chances of meeting favorable winds of greater strength to produce propulsion are so much better at height rather than sea level

[Kiteship]

Peter's paper is indeed well done. While he and I disagree on some details, by and large the conclusions therein are well made.

Although the Turbosail idea was a good one (the patents have expired, so anyone could experiment with it), sadly, the Calypso II may never be built. One of the articles you cite, Guellermo, is from 1985. This one, from 1998, suggests it may never be built, since Jacque's death in 1997: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...989254,00.html
Regardless, as a much heavier ship with half the sail area, she'd never approach the 10-35% fuel savings claimed by Alcyone.

Yes Brian, kites can seek higher winds above the surface, but that's not their primary advantage. The fact that kites are both self-supporting and non-heeling, are. This allows fitting very much cheaper (as much as 80% cheaper) sailing rigs to most any boat, whether or not it is ballasted, or even has a keel. Kites on barges--even icebergs--are perfectly appropriate--and profitable.

OTOH, I believe there's room for everyone in the pool. Masted sailing rigs, such as Turbosail (which actually IS a revolutionary method of sailing--it's nothing like a Flettner rotor, with which it is often compared) or Perkin's Dyna-Rig square rigger certainly have a place in shipping's future. These devices, though an order of magnitude more expensive than kites, don't have the calm-wind and strong wind complications of kites; they are always (well, usually always!) under complete control from the bridge, even without expensive computer autopilots.

Dave

Dave

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Dave. I did not realize the oldness of the article.
I agree kites are a nice way to go, but they are not so cheap if automation (essential) is high.
I also agree with you turbosails, dynarigs, etc, will have their share of the market, too.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Kiteship

...suggests it may never be built, since Jacque's death in 1997: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...989254,00.html

Thanks for that reference Dave. Its such a shame that the youth of today does not have a Cousteau image to inspire them. I know I was always watching his programs, and it helped lead me to the oceans.

And at the opposite frontier, how about our (NASA) space program...landing a man on the moon. What heady days those were.

...it's nothing like a Flettner rotor, with which it is often compared, or Perkin's Dyna-Rig square rigger certainly have a place in shipping's future.

I'm affraid neither of these two concepts have a future in commerical shipping (deck space too valuable), but I am hoping to do a few pleasure boats with the DynaRig concept...should be exciting.

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

I'm affraid neither of these two concepts have a future in commerical shipping (deck space too valuable)....

I'm basically thinking on passenger ships for those technologies, although we cannot yet definitely put aside merchant ships.

There were news in 2005 about some investigations in new sailing rigs for merchant ships:

"It will now be profitable both environmentally and economically to build the windship," says Anders Carlberg of Knud E. Hansen. Other new sailing ship projects are already in the works, one in Germany and one in Japan. Carlberg and his team estimate that full-scale trials of their design will start within three years.
It is not just the oil price that has moved in the windships' favour. The Danish team is confident that it will be able to design a more efficient vessel. Jesper Kanstrup, Knud E. Hansen's senior naval architect, says that the original designs concentrated on minimising the amount of space the engine and sails took up to maximise cargo space. "They weren't designed for fuel economy."

I have not been able to find new info on this matter. Anyone has further news?

Cheers.

[FAST FRED]

I have not been able to find new info on this matter. Anyone has further news?


Look over on the AYRS site , they have been pushing these for a couple of decades.

FF