New propulsion sytems for ships

[SheetWise]

"Why is fuel for ships and airplanes so much cheaper than for cars?"

Because the people who calculate the tax for different fuels figure they don't have to build roads, bridges, controlled intersections, etc., etc., etc., plus the cost of maintaining them.

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by SheetWise

"Why is fuel for ships and airplanes so much cheaper than for cars?"

Because the people who calculate the tax for different fuels figure they don't have to build roads, bridges, controlled intersections, etc., etc., etc., plus the cost of maintaining them.

Also, it is usually of much lower quality than what governments (at the prodding of thier own citizens) will allow in road vehicles. Check out the QE2 web sight. Thier fuel is so crappy, it has to be heated up to 150 deg. F before it can be injected.

Bob

[Raggi_Thor]

I think it's also because it's hard for me to fill my car any other place than here, while airplanes and ships will fill their tanks where it's cheapest EDIT: It was the different tax levels I first thought of. The same diesel for boats are cheaper than for cars (in Norway).

[Vega]

You mean, the diesel is less expensive for all the boats, professional and recreational, or only for professionals?

[Raggi_Thor]

That's the strange thing, diesel for all boats are so called "tax free".

Then there are local variations, we pay more one the south coats (typical recreatinal area with lots of summer houses) than in the west and north, but that's not because of taxes.

I think farmers (tractors), buses and trailers (road trasnport) can buy the same diesel as boats.

[SheetWise]

In the US there is coloring added to kerosene, aviation, and other off road fuel -- and steep fines if you are found using them on the road.

[Vega]

Sheetwise, In the EC also.

Raggi, in the UK it's also like that. There is talk that it is going to finish (U.K. magazines).

Doesn't make any sense.

[Ari]

In my country..somewhere in the 90's 1 litre of premium grade petrol(97 RON) sold at 25 cents by refinery to the marketing company who add in some more handling cost and goverment taxes and that same litre will reach the buyer at $1.50, diesel are sold to end users at $0.60 per litres..now we pay $1.91 per litre of petrol and $1.60 for diesel, commercial vehicle pay $1.00 per litre of diesel (lorrys, busess,taxis,tractors,fishermans boats)factories diesel $1.60. boat marinas will charge the boaters $1.80-$2.00 per litre of diesel.($ sign=RM. Malaysian currency, not USD. 1USD = RM3.6)

Road diesel or Automotive gasoil have a higher Motor Octane Number - MON. Industrial Diesel Oil have lower MON.Higher MON will give better combustion and easy starting.Ship/industries boilers use very high viscosity fuel.Fuel temperature are normally kept very high for good atomisation at gun burner tip.(centralised asphalt burning system are maintain at 230 degrees Celcius).
Jet A1 or Avtur for jet turbine engine have different specification compared to kerosene. Kerosene specification on smoke point is very stringent- if that batch fail this test..it can be used as jet A-1 only. Jet A1 got no specification on smoke point.To differentiate this two products some country coloured their kerosene with blue colour.Jet A1 are about colourless - the colour are measured using ASTM Saybolt unit.
Kerosene, diesel and 'Fuel oil'( black stuff like asphalt) normally are straight run product or a by product/ blended from a simple process, Petrol cannot be make from straight run.It is from cracking process / quality enhancement unit.This involve another complicated processing plant.
The tax for petrol do take into account that the user is actually the end user..those diesel customer normally are business oriented thus there is chances that they will be tax again on their product and company revenue tax..diesel tax or diesel derivative tax are actually as high as petrol..only they are spread over a bigger base...

[SheetWise]

Ari -

There are positive externalities for the revenuers from all transportation -- the idea of a "derivative tax" is meaningless, since any form of consumption on any level will produce the same. Some groups simply have stronger lobbies ...

[Ari]

Originally Posted by SheetWise

Ari -

Some groups simply have stronger lobbies ...

right on..!

[Raggi_Thor]

Back to the topic :-)
I am probably going to build a 7m long model, scale 1:10 of a 70m supply ship.
The model will be used to test a really new(?) propulsion system!
It's basically some "paddles" moving back and forth under the after body of the hull, same system as a (swimming, live) duck.
Anyone seen anything like that?

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Raggi_Thor

Back to the topic :-)
I am probably going to build a 7m long model, scale 1:10 of a 70m supply ship.
The model will be used to test a really new(?) propulsion system!
It's basically some "paddles" moving back and forth under the after body of the hull, same system as a (swimming, live) duck.
Anyone seen anything like that?

Yes, that's one of the propulsion sytems in 'Orcelle', Wallenius Willemsen's futuristic Zero Emissions Car Carrier. It has underbody fins moved by waves energy (Although here fins move up and down).
See:
http://www.2wglobal.com/expo2005/english/index.jsp

[Raggi_Thor]

Very interesting. I hope oil prices will continue to be high so we can se some alternatives soon :-)

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

"According to information from the Livermore National Laboratory (USA), actively participating in development of hybrids for cars, specific energy capacitance of graphite super flywheels can reach 545 Wt h/kg, that by far outperforms modern sodium and sulphur batteries..."


The additional delight of flywheels is their ability to accept energy (recharge) at prodigous rates. One of the biggest hassles with batterys is their inability to rapidly recharge.
Last dream sheet I saw was the vehicle would pull over a pad and the pad would energise the flywheel to max rpm using NO mechanical contacts. Just induction.

This would solve the problem of granny "refuling' her Corvette , with out even getting out of the car!

On a boat I'm not sure of the practicaliy of these setups , although the electronics might be usefull.
But then my goals are blue water not brown.

FAST FRED

I agree.

Flywheels are pretty cool. At least for short term energy storage.
I've been dreaming and scheming for a flywheel regenerative braking system for cars for years. I have just learned enough about physics to make a crude flywheel spread sheet. It automaticlly sets the maximum rpm based on the diameter and the strength of the matterial it is made of.

It is interesting some of the things I have learned about the flywheel game. Large diameter pays. And so does using a very strong but light matterial.
I can see why graphite fibers are being considered.

As much as I like Dr. Bitterly's work, I think flywheels would be best used for regenerative braking. The goal would be to get at least half the energy lost by stopping the car back (batteries, I hear, only get about a quarter) to get it going again once the light changes. This more modest goal would, I think, would be more in keeping with the concept of a car as an easily mass produced, relatively low cost vehical for mass consumption. Being able to make the flyheel out of readily available industrial matterials, such as Aluminum, would keep the cost down.

I can see such a flyhweel producing roughly half the acceleration energy for roughly 10 seconds. Long enough (I hope) to get back up to highway speed. Engine could then be made maybe one third smaller (in hp) and still have reasonable over all performance.

The system I envision would be electromechanical rather than electrochemical (batteries). There might be some weight savings by going that route rather than with batteries.

As for ships, pyrochemical energy storage with liquid fuels will probably always be king. It is most likely the cheapest effective option available. Next in line will probably be nuclear fissionables, but the high front end cost as well as the safety concerns will probably doom it eternally to no better than second choice. And only for very large ships.

I expect the sail assisted diesel ship to be the standard by the time I enter the nursing home. It is both cheap and reliable and substitutes are already waiting in the wings for when the (affordable) petro-deisel runs out.

Bob

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by sharpii2

I agree. Flywheels are pretty cool. At least for short term energy storage.

As much as I like Dr. Bitterly's work, I think flywheels would be best used for regenerative braking. The goal would be to get at least half the energy lost by stopping the car back (batteries, I hear, only get about a quarter) to get it going again once the light changes.Engine could then be made maybe one third smaller (in hp) and still have reasonable over all performance.

Some city buses in Switzerland made use of such a flywheel regenerative system many years ago. But the additional point is they are just not a regenerative tool, but rather any energy storage tool

Being able to make the flyheel out of readily available industrial matterials, such as Aluminum, would keep the cost down.

Not a practical material for flywheel construction if I remember properly.

And so does using a very strong but light matterial. I can see why graphite fibers are being considered.

Some interesting excerpts from Composite Flywheel Structural Improvement.....

Benign failure

Pioneered by Jack Bitterly at U.S. Flywheels, benign failure has proven successful in laboratory testing, our goal is to increase the safety margin to assure feasibility.

Current flywheel rotors are composed of resin soaked fibers wound around an axle. Failure occurs as the rotational force pulls the material to the outside rim and causes a separation in the winding. A separation is visible to computer aided structural monitoring systems before any damage to the containment occurs allowing for safe shutdown of the system. It has been proven that continued failure or a second failure will not occur at 80% of the speed at which the first failure occurred. Although when the system fails it still operates at 80% of its optimum potential, an improvement in the rotor strength will increase the safety margin.

In order to avoid catastrophic failure the method of filament winding is essential, however, the process does not allow for the most effective use of the fiber’s tensile strength. The forces on the rotor at are in a radial direction, while the wound fibers reside perpendicular to the radii. The point of failure occurs between the surface of the fiber and the resin. Any changes in the resin have yielded no improvement in overall rotor strength. The addition of reinforcement aggregate to the resin has proved to increase the distance between fibers such that the resin is reinforced but there is more of it. The strength of the rotor is optimized when the highest possible ratio of fiber to resin is achieved. TRIZ was employed to look at unresolved areas

New Collaborations

Researchers Scott Keeley and Steve Beletire at Southern Illinois University are working on a new product concept, partnered with Chief Scientist Jack Bitterly of U.S Flywheels Inc.. The goal of the research is to bring a successful satellite technology down to earth. The problem solving process led to an additional partnership with Dr. Dan Dyer of Polymer Chemistry at SIU.

Product benefit

Flywheel energy storage is a more efficient, pollution-free solution to chemical batteries. Total recharge can be accomplished in about 15 minutes at any rate of energy draw or frequency yielding a cycle life of over 100,000 charges, or 30 years, with no deterioration in performance. The intent of the research is to facilitate the integration of flywheel technology in products related to personal mobility. Fork lifts, golf carts, lawn tractors or power wheelchairs will benefit from this technology.