in-line 6 Cylinder Engines, 'straight-six'

[tunnels]

Originally Posted by whitepointer23

i realise there is an advantage with modern engines but when your 100 miles from the nearest town and the efi pump craps out or the ecu you are not going anywhere. at least you can clean out a carby or fix the points and get to town. i agree with what you say par but you are over exaggerating a bit. we have much better oils now which would have helped the old engines. i have seen 250 falcon sixs reach 500,000 miles . my 2007 model gt falcon has quad cams , variable valve timing and all the other fancy stuff but it only puts out 50 hp more than a 1971 gt with a pushrod engine and carby.

This is the age of electronics and is unrepairable UNLESS you have a load of computer gadgets to find what is wrong with it . there is nothing wrong with the mechanical side of the modern engines its all the grap that added to regulate and control its every revelution to what it calls peak efficency
mY WIFE OWNED 206 peugeot a fantastic car untill the ecu unit decided it had had enough !!,it controll virtually the whole car including the gear change on the auto
i found a computer wize that knew it was with just the discription i gave him , 4 times it was repaired and the car never ever got from the garage to my home 20 ks away > in the end the guy bought the car because he gave us a warranty , if i could have i would have stripped all the rubbish off the motor and fitted a disributor and carburators and would have been a fantastic car again . I got on the web and found it to be a very common problem with the 206 !!, wow there was so much hate mail .
I remember also going to a car show and there was a old 1948 ford v8 with the bonnet up and a guy looking and shaking his head . I said simple ah !! he smiled and said how does it work ?? wheres all the electronics and control units and pipes and hoses how does it function ? i said it didnt need any of that junk because it was made reliable and simple like all cars were in that era . Its the age we live in !!
Las example was the volvo guys came to work to repair a couple of older sterndrives when the boat went back in the water it had no guts and would hardly plane rpms were low and after two day was discovered the pair of motors had been derated by the idiot service man when he pluged in his laptop reprogram and all ws back to where it should have been we never did get to the bottom of who and why ,but boy i caused some strife.

[CDK]

Originally Posted by liki

4 or 5 cylinders has nothing to do with injection method used, right? Used to own a Sprinter with MB 5cyl common rail engine.

Yes, it is the key factor.
The 150-250 HP needed for a heavy vehicle can now be obtained from a compact 4 or 5 cyl CRDi engine with better economy, longer life and little maintenance.

[WestVanHan]

"In 1970 Chrysler Australia unleashed the 300+ horse power Hemi six engine.
Over 35 years of technology later and we still find cars like the Chrysler Viper boasting zero to 100 times of 14.5 seconds."

As an auto broker I've owned 3 Vipers...they're from 7-8 seconds to 100 mph and the 1/4 mile in 11.5-12 seconds or so-so this seems another enthusiast site stroking themselves.

But yes nice cars for the day,but I like the Ford Turbo 4.0 six.

[whitepointer23]

herod performance in melbourne boosted a turbo ford 6 to 1000 hp and ran it for hours on the dyno with no ill effects at all. must be well built. i am not sure why cdk thinks a 4 or 5 cylinder will outlast a 6, it is wrong in my experience. cheaper to produce and compact are the only reasons i see for them.

[WestVanHan]

Like I said-packaging and expensive fuel in Europe.

1000 hp for that amount of time-I wonder if the Veyron could do that but it doesn't matter because the gas runs out in 12 minutes,the tires wear out in 15 minutes and cost $35k to replace...

As for boats where packaging is not such a big concern,I only know of a few 5 cylinders in the medium to high speed us BD'ers may fit into a large trawler or such...Callesen,B&N and I think Scania.

Smaller ones..none come to mind other than maybe VW marine- if they do it'll be their car based 2.5.

[powerabout]

Originally Posted by WestVanHan

"In 1970 Chrysler Australia unleashed the 300+ horse power Hemi six engine.
Over 35 years of technology later and we still find cars like the Chrysler Viper boasting zero to 100 times of 14.5 seconds."

As an auto broker I've owned 3 Vipers...they're from 7-8 seconds to 100 mph and the 1/4 mile in 11.5-12 seconds or so-so this seems another enthusiast site stroking themselves.

But yes nice cars for the day,but I like the Ford Turbo 4.0 six.

The car they put the E49 265 into also came with 2bbl 318 and a 2bbl 360 and a semi hot 10:1 cr 4bbl 340 but the 6 would kill it

( the cars did have a decal that said 6 pack)

[CDK]

Yes, but VW marine is Cummins now.
4 and 5 cylinders inline, a V6 and a V8, all of them adapted car engines, ranging from 40 to 300 HP.
http://www.cmdmarine.com/Product2/VW_index.html

[whitepointer23]

I am driving a truck with a 580 hp cummins isx 6 cylinder at the moment. The other 56 trucks we have at work are all 6 cyllnders. All large trucks have a 6 except scania merc And. Man but no one buys them. i checked the fuel consumption of the cummins and it is getting 4.11 mpg u.s. and that is hauling 166,000 pounds u.s. pretty good for that weight.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by whitepointer23

I am driving a truck with a 580 hp cummins isx 6 cylinder at the moment. The other 56 trucks we have at work are all 6 cyllnders. All large trucks have a 6 except scania merc And. Man but no one buys them.

I was just thinking of posting a similar question,...'aren't the great majority of over-the-road trucks in the USA six cylinder diesels'? They must know something about this type of engine.

Then this from another forum....
"Just ask 40 or 50,000 fish boat owners anywhere what works, Gardners, Lehmans,671 detroits. some of these motors go so many hours with simple maintaince, and good oil, then most folks would ever believe!! Ive personaly had 85 and 120 hp Lehmans with over 15000 hours with a upper end job in those hours somewhere !! and I wont even coment on Gardners or 671s cus ya would never believe me anyway !! LOL Lets just say with normal maintaince, some 6 cyl and even 4 cyls can run well a lot longer then most yacht owners would ever believe if they could keep there engine rooms cooler at least thats my 2 cents"

[powerabout]

the inline 6 is perfect when turbo'd as they all use split pulse turbine housings and from a 6 you get even pulses in either side especcially when you mount the turbo in the middle of the engine which packages nicely in a truck

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by PAR

The L6 configuration is dieing out for obvious engineering issues. Most everything an engine is used in, is being made smaller and lighter, so an L6 arrangement gets tossed right away, for it's length and massive rotating assembly, which has to be more robust, just to support itself. This is one reason the L6's of the world have good reputations. Their necessarily big, heavy cranks produce a fair bit more reciprocating mass, for their displacement. This can be great in slow turning, slow responding engines, but again this is directly against the general engineering trends across most industries.

Excuse me but isn't the great majority of the trucking fleet here in the USA utilizing straight 6 cylinder engines?....for their hi-torque capabilities and their long range durability?

And I imagine a great number of industrial engines are still nice heavy sixes?

Lighter, smaller, faster responding, more efficient engines are what's being drawn up, so an engine with a meter long crank isn't reasonable any more. V configurations can half the length of an engine with the same displacement. Opposed configurations can do the same as well as dramatically lower their height. The boxer configuration has a lot going for it, but hasn't really caught on as much as you'd think it should.

Sure there has been lots of development with smaller, lighter weight diesel engines, but generally they are of the square, or over-square variety which translates into higher revving engines with greater piston speeds. More piston speed generally means shorter overhaul periods. Many of these new generation 'lt-weight diesels' will not last ½ or even ¼ of the time between overhauls that those robust commercial grade sixes last.

As to the "fondness" of the good old days, when you could do a tune up with a match book cover and butter knife, well, I suggest you take off those special glasses. You know the ones that let you see only what you want to see. You seem to forget that those same, easily tuned engines also needed a fresh set of plugs every 15 - 20 thousand miles, valve jobs every 50k and getting them to survive past 100k, without having to carry a case of oil in the trunk, was not reasonable. Current engines, with those damned computer controls, can run with the same set of plugs for 200k without question. In fact, you can buy a new car, never open the hood for 100k and it'll be fine. I've tuned late models with over 100k, that still have the original oil filter, air filter, spark plugs, plug wires, the works. Try that on your 1963 slant 225 Plymouth Valiant. It would have spit out or burned up it's oil long before, the valves would be choked with carbon, the plugs changed a half dozen times, those solid lifters adjusted a few times and the leaks, sweet God the leaks, that you can follow home if you ever lost track of it. Yea, the good old days, when 100k was the usual life of an engine, before you strongly considered rebuilding it. Now 300k shows the cylinders are worn by .008" with modern engines and those confounded computer controls. By the way, those pesky computers have the same family of engines producing twice the HP, 3 times the longevity and twice the fuel mileage too. Yea, the good old days my butt.

We need to compare apples with apples. There have significant advances in both gasoline and diesel engines over the past 20-30 years.
Fuel Delivery
Gas engines have perfected fuel injection to the point that it is much better than the old carburetors.
Similarly diesel engines that have always had direct injection have advanced from mechanical injection, to electrical injection, to very high pressure injection termed 'common rail'. Now our fuel supplies to the engine can be much more exactly controlled with the needs of the engine. So both have advanced, but that doesn't impact the cylinder configuration of the engine. Some injectors and configurations are better than others at delivering the best atomization of the fuel, and at precisely the desired amount for all conditions of engine operation

Ignition Source
Gas engines require an ignition source, and the development of capacitive discharge ignitions certainly improved the old points and rotor situation. Then came pointless and rotorless.
Diesels don't require an ignition source. They compress the fuel to the point of self ignition. And with higher compressions and better chamber size, modern diesels are better,...but again this is not affected by the six cylinder configuration one way or the other.


Ultimately I am hoping that this subject thread leads to more discussions about MARINE 6 cylinder diesel engines, and the virtues and negatives of these various brands. But I do realize that there are lots- of experiences out there with auto engines, so all discussions are welcomed, and interesting. The point being that in many of the MARINE applications we are not concerned about a little extra 'weight per power ratios', but rather long term durability at continuous high outputs.

[tunnels]

The most impressive automotive come marine motor i know of is the hyundi vee 6, 3 litre is a nice motor lighter than most being a vee is short and compact . smooth rinning and quiet . The spinoff is its fuel efficentcy as well .
i worked at a boat company in South Korea for couple of years and the young engineer we had worked closely with hyundi setting up and mating there motor to the mercruser stern drive . was exciting time and as the company produced a 22 foor open fishing boat and the vee 6 was the chosen motor fo this boat .very immpressive all round .

theres something about 6 cylinders that feels good . my car is a 2.5 litre vee 6 petrol and when i stamp on the gas it gets the message and jumps without a moment of hesitation and means buiness .

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by tunnels

The most impressive automotive come marine motor i know of is the hyundi vee 6, 3 litre is a nice motor lighter than most being a vee is short and compact . smooth rinning and quiet . The spinoff is its fuel efficentcy as well .
i worked at a boat company in South Korea for couple of years and the young engineer we had worked closely with hyundi setting up and mating there motor to the mercruser stern drive . was exciting time and as the company produced a 22 foor open fishing boat and the vee 6 was the chosen motor fo this boat .very immpressive all round .

Am I to assume this is a gas engine? Do you have the specs for this particular engine? What sort of RPM's does it operate at? Any idea of its capabilties in Heavy Duty operation? Any idea of times between overhauls.

I know Hyundi is making some really nice automobiles (I have a few friends who own them), but I'm not thinking this is the type of powerplant I'm looking to give a big truck a push across country, nor my single-engined motorsailer a push around the world...twice or four times maybe, before needing any major rebuild work.

[brian eiland]

GM Suburban, Denali, Cadillac Escalade ...Ford Explorer, Expedition, Excursion

Since we have a lot of automobile talk here (in addition to that marine related ), I'm going to bring up a subject I was trying to get the automobile companies to consider. Back when the automobile companies in the USA where experiencing dire problems, and our fuel prices were shooting up big time as we approached $100 per barrel crude oil, this thought came to me, 'Why have these big car company executives not seen this coming? Why have they persisted in bringing out ever bigger V-8 engines, and/or not at least exploring other possibilities concurrently with this new world environment? Can they be so short-sighted?'

Americans (and particularly the 'soccer moms') have come to love these big SUV's. But do we really need to power them with ever bigger displacement, fuel hungry V-8 engines ? Why doesn't someone in both GM and Ford take a little look back in their company history's and realize that both of these companies use to build a rock solid in-line 6 cylinder engine. Why not tweak these old designs a little bit by giving them an up-to-date electronic ignition system, and a modern fuel injection system?

What might we end up with? By eliminating 2 cylinders out of the equation then each RPM requires that much less fuel consumption. I dare say with the updates, and the elimination of 2 cylinders a 12-15% gain in fuel economy could be had.

Now these old sixes were noted for great torque output due to their longer piston strokes. So you modify the lower transmission ratio to give you great acceleration at the low end (likely as good as if not superior to that V-8), and you add an extra gear ratio to the top end to give you great hi-way mileage. You might even gain another 10-15% better fuel economy.

So what do you end up with? The same size vehicle that everyone likes ...with much better fuel economy (25-30%), very little lost of power, and you didn't have to 'reinvent the wheel' or retool much of anything?? Why couldn't top management figure that one out?,...and they have yet to do it !!

[tunnels]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Am I to assume this is a gas engine? Do you have the specs for this particular engine? What sort of RPM's does it operate at? Any idea of its capabilties in Heavy Duty operation? Any idea of times between overhauls.

I know Hyundi is making some really nice automobiles (I have a few friends who own them), but I'm not thinking this is the type of powerplant I'm looking to give a big truck a push across country, nor my single-engined motorsailer a push around the world...twice or four times maybe, before needing any major rebuild work.

Its a diesel , they had some of these motors been running wide open throttle for months and months Then they were taken off the test bed and torn apart to reveal nothing so were reassembled and away they went again wide open 24/7 .
we had one motor sitting on our workshop floor and when it was running in the cradle it arrived on from hyundai !, i put a cup of tea on the top cover and came back an hour later was still in the same place and hadnt fallen off !! but the tea was cold !!so they wont keep you tea hot !,sorry !!

http://www.hyundaiseasallusa.com/

http://www.performancediesel.com/wp-...dai/S25021.pdf