Gasturbines

[D'ARTOIS]

Recently, we got the representation of ZORIYA Gasturbines Mfg Co from the Ukraine.
Although we have our resources to check on the availability of installed gasturbines in non-commercial vessels at present, I still doubt that our info is up-to-date. I am specifically interested in the Yacht- and Government Market.
The topic of gasturbines is raising again since many designers and operators are not at level of latest technology, explaining the little use and application of said engines.
My question concerns the US and Canada. Is there any use of gasturbines in small vessels between 50'and 100' - either yachts or government-military use?
Save for the larger surface-vessels in the operational fleet.
I am aiming at vessels that require 3000 - 6000 hp as rated power.

I assume you can not find anything is because no one will pay the huge costs and time to get one approved by all the safety and insurance companies. A geared turbo-prop engine is used on lots of aircraft in that range. No marine approval -again? --Luxury yachts already have them. You need to watch more DIRECT TV boat programs to keep up with the latest toys of the rich.

[D'ARTOIS]

That was not my question.
I have all registrations of commericial- and yachts with gasturbines. What I am just curious babout is the US Government market. There we have some, but as I believe cripple, information about the application in ships of units of 6000 - 10,000 hp.
If some knows more about that, I would be very interested to share their experiences.
Thanks anyway,
D'ARTOIS

Look on the web-- Special Forces boats-- use variations-- and links. I found the modern equivilant of PT boats. They are powered buy turbines and desiels. It is publick record. You just have to spend 4 to 8 hours of time.

[mattotoole]

There's at least one American company doing turbine engines for yachts. Their boats have been written up in various boating mags in the last few years. I don't have the links to those articles, but the company is here:

www.marineturbine.com

I know a guy who served on a turbine powered ship in the US Navy. The most expensve part of the ship is the giant reduction gear for the turbine -- several meters in diameter. This kind of thing is what makes turbines impractical for yachts, unless the budget is unlimited. Low speed operation is a problem too, perhaps requiring an auxiliary drivetrain for harbor use.

Turbines have do not have a wide RPM operating band. So they have poor eff. off of peak HP. There is no airvalve to control mixtures of fuel and air at any speed, except maximum. The proof of that statement is the long time it takes a engine to go from idle to maximum RPM, compared to a piston engine. I have no idea if they can ever do it. Yacht people pay and expect smooth steady response similar to a car. Tough sell,---- if you can not match response and economy of a piston type engine.

[D'ARTOIS]

In general it is the problem with Gasturbines that they are not designed for low speed. Mostly they are combined with supporting diesels. It called CODAG - combined diesel and gas. I have most of the military information supplied by the various intelligenge coy's like Jane's etc. I was actually interested if somebody knew about lesser known applications. There are indeed a number of yachts equipped with gasturbines, as was for example Octopussy, a Dutch design of Frank Mulder, owned by cartrader John Stalluppi. However, the boat was sold some time after her delivery and the 2nd owner took the gasturbine out.
There only four companies left who manufacture Gasturbines, the rest is trade names. Only one company in the world manufactures specialized marine gasturbines, Zorya in the Ukraine. Those engines power about 68% of the Russian fleet. They do not require the clutch assembly also they lacke the reverse-gears. Due to a special system the fanblades can be returned internally, an asset that Vericor, GE and Rolls Royce don't have.

Mtt turbines has a very good PR SALES INFORMATION writer. NO mention of fuel consumption--- Uses the phrase --turbines are used in aircraft carriers, US nuke uses a STEAM TURBINE, not a hydrocarbon fired engine. Have you ever seen the intake ducts and exhaust ducts or heard the high pitched scream that can resonate out either opening? Or set up a engine area resonance at spot rpm's and loads? They are great for racing yachts and SOME military craft.

I am depraved. I was watching Direct tv , a special of luxury yachts. It did show the fastest large yacht, powered by aux. turbines to do I think 50 knots. and weighed ? 55 tons? Impressive! BUT- WW II Elco PTB did 55 knots and weighed 50 to 55 tons on 3 Packard 1500 hp engines. It had 5 steps on the bottom. Could run on 1-2-or 3 engines AND go sideways to dock. ON REGULAR if needed. Old ineff. 80' X 20' geezer boat.-----------------------------It deterred Pirates with 50 cal., 20 mm, 37mm, 40mm, 2 torpedos, 4 depth charges, (10) 5.0" rockets, and trainable Mortars. Clay and Skeet also.

[D'ARTOIS]

Gasturbines are only used in vessels that require low weight engines and a massive poweroutput to obtain and maintain high speeds. Submarines are powered by diesel-electric systems or by nuclear powerplants. Helicopter engines i.e. ex Textron, Lycoming etc (belongs to VERICOR GE) are used in fun boats, not in Super and/or Megayachts.
Fast feeryships however, do have booster-engines, mostly gasturbines to operate at high speeds. As soon as high speed is not anymore required, the gasturbine is shut off. The minimum output of a marinerelated gasturbine is 3 megawatt. The top is 40 megawatt p/engine. Vericor's max. output is about 25 megawatt.
It uses about 8-10% more fuel than a Diesel.

Life has always been a shell shuffle game. I will get you there in 1/2 the time for 25 % more fare.

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by Richard Petersen

Turbines have do not have a wide RPM operating band. So they have poor eff. off of peak HP. There is no airvalve to control mixtures of fuel and air at any speed, except maximum. The proof of that statement is the long time it takes a engine to go from idle to maximum RPM, compared to a piston engine. I have no idea if they can ever do it. Yacht people pay and expect smooth steady response similar to a car. Tough sell,---- if you can not match response and economy of a piston type engine.

Actually the response isn't that bad. If you look at the Marineturbine website you'll see they've been building motorcycles. If the response were that slow, they'd be deadly. Actually they're close, having about a second's worth of lag either coming on the power or coming off. The latter could be really scary. This is according to a review I read. However, I don't think it's a problem for the kind of yachts for which these turbines would be used.

The biggest problem is still the transmission and gearing. A large amount of reduction is necessary. This is not only cumbersome but non-standard, requiring too much custom engineering and manufacture. Ditto for the other problems -- hot exhaust, and noise.

I do think turbine-electric drive has promise, if appropriately sized units could be found.

[mattotoole]

With all the talk about diesel electric drive recently -- and now turbines -- what about turbine-electric? This seems the best way to exploit a turbine's efficiency, reliability, compact size, and light weight, without having to deal with cumbersome transmission and drive issues. Simply use a turbine to drive a generator, and drive the boat with an electric motor.

What about the turbine gensets used for electric power on large passenger aircraft? I'm sure they're as small and lightweight as possible. What's their output? How/where could one of these be sourced? How much would it cost?

[FAST FRED]

On aircraft these are called APU (Auxillary Power Units) and are priced with any jet engine.

Millions not thousands , but they DO provide bleed air to operate the aircraft air cond on the ground and air to start the flying engines.

A source called Trade A Plane , sometimes has used takeouts from military helocopters for sale.

The US gov is NEVER interested in engines and other items from countrys that can cut the supply at a whim .

So Russian engines would NEVER be considered , esp with the senators from Prat & Whitney, GE and the rest of the US mfg base signing the checks.

FAST FRED

[D'ARTOIS]

Marine Grade Gasturbines are mainly applicated in Navy-craft where a continuous output of high power is required; As a booster-engine in Ferry's or even main engines, - and then they come with water-jet systems to control manoeuvrability also at lowl speeds. The watervalve of the Jet controls the all over speed - the engine remains running on full rpm.
The main market for the suppliers of gasturbines are Governmental- and Fast Ferry operators. The yachtmarket is insignificant.

The 2nd remark of Fast Fred concerning the US Government I would answer as follows: A country that wants to fight Governmental corruption abroad, better starts first to get even with their own problems in that respect. I would not be attempted to try to sell to the US Government and neither the US Government will be attempted to buy anything from ex USSR resources nor any other. Not in this generation anyway. The protection of own industries is very well recognised internationally and is only matched by the similar attitude of the French.
The gasturbine market is a paperthin market , mainly caused by the fact that the applicationband is very small.
Also the general unfamiliarity with the subject plays an important role and any advances in this segment of the market are going by unnoticed.