Emission Controls - Technical Thread

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by CDK

What sort of sulphur did you have in mind, rhombic, monocline, organic or anorganic composites?
Please do your homework first and refrain from making senseless remarks.

You undoubtedly have more knowledge than me on sulphur type but i'm not your child so i would appreciate that do not mess with my home work .
Quantity is a thing ...concentration is another...if for you this is senseless and you think that after all, in many years, it will be diluted, i agree there is no discussion.
Following this, concentrated pollution in towns or harbour areas, closed bay, closed seas, is not a problem as it finishes to be diluted... on day.
It is also much more senseless when you are not exposed to high concentrations of sulphur. But if one day your flesh gets exposed to a high concentration, your opinion may change. Don't you think ? (this was a long discussion i had with an old friend, oyster N°00, from Oleron island)

My English is not very good, is "senseless" or "nonsense" a synonym of "disturbing" ?

[fasteddy106]

Originally Posted by Boston

the thing I find interesting is that the form of clean diesel your talking about is only going to be used by the small time pleasure boater
bunker #6 I think it is ends up being burned by the ton in massive engines designed to move cargo vessels. Its these huge cargo vessels unique to the present ( sorry to mention it ) world economy that are the huge issue when it comes to marine co2 emissions

thing is that residual fuels are not likely going to getting much cleaner ( its not economical )
maybe Jimbo will chime in with some info on that one
so if your going to have to clean up the emissions its going to end up being in the combustion faze or the exhaust faze and a wet exhaust isnt exactly conducive to that plan as Eddie pointed out.

should be an interesting read what solutions you gear heads might come up with

B


so

Forget about CO2 - it's meaningless for our thread here as it is not a pollutant, just an AGW bogey man.

[fasteddy106]

The HC, CO, and NOX gases from the gas engines can be reduced by more effiecient fuel injection. NOX from marine engines is fairly low anyhow because they run much cooler to start with. Of course once we lean out the mixtures the NOX will rise dramaticly but the release to the atmosphere will be tempered by the wet mixture. I don't think dry exhaust with O2 sensors and a cat/converter are feasable because of the danger of the heat from such a system. You have to have the heat for a Cat to work so wrapping it is out of the question. One thing we can do is remove ethanol from the mix, this is a nightmare for marine systems anyhow and is a fraud to start with. Because of its water absorbtion capabilities ethanol makes the gas burn less efficient and not as cleanly once it has reached maximum water saturation. The engine has to use more fuel to attain the same performance and it doesn't burn as effieciently. We have already seen the disaster with MBTE, ethanol isn't as poisonous but for our purposes is worthless.

[mydauphin]

Here in Florida the marine mechanics are raking in the bucks because of ethanol. It is now 10% in all gasoline sold, and boats are having all kinds of problems if you let it sit. I have two stroke engines and notice lower power and also problem with oil mix. The oil doesn't mix as well. Other problem is it seems to evaporate faster in tank just sitting there.

In a previous life I work in asphalt plant that burned bunker fuel. It had scrubbers that work great and cleaned exhaust. Waste water was then turned into steam and other residues where fed again into plant. It work great, was expensive and took a lot of room.

[kistinie]

Ethanol evaporates ?
Dammed !
I have left my TR3 alone for a year with tank full of almost pure ethanol ...E85 gasoline in fact...You think i may get bad surprise ?
I is already the case with gasoline, loosing octane, how does ethanol behaves ? It is a little out of subject...Sorry

[apex1]

Originally Posted by kistinie

Ethanol evaporates ?
Dammed !
I have left my TR3 alone for a year with tank full of almost pure ethanol ...E85 gasoline in fact...You think i may get bad surprise ?
I is already the case with gasoline, loosing octane, how does ethanol behaves ? It is a little out of subject...Sorry

You do not stop before you have spoilt the very last thread here right? What about the "drivel thread" that is exactly the one your statements fit in.

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by apex1

You do not stop before you have spoilt the very last thread here right? What about the "drivel thread" that is exactly the one your statements fit in.

"Drivel thread" ...What does it mean ? i did not find it in my dictionary
Spoilt the thread ...Very interesting statement
Can you explain ? Is it this question about ethanol stability that could be also understood in the subject as it seems to affect all the gasoline fuel, and you know that when a fuel is degrading it may affect pollution...or is it related to the "ICE de-pollution by water" swindle explained in #7 ? Your friends were much smarter and did not re-open the box like you've just done...Thanks

Do not cry us a river, I'm breaking your old toy to bring you a new one, much nicer !

[M-Sasha]

Originally Posted by kistinie

Your friends were much smarter and did not re-open the box like you've just done...Thanks

Interesting, that was your purpose, to find another battlefield yes? Your "Thanks" made that very clear.
The Alcohol related problems in our fuel are handled on several threads around here, thats not the topic!

Sasha

[M-Sasha]

Drivel..............all just drivel........290 posts just that.

Sasha

[marshmat]

On the sulphur issue: The concern here is the reactions that oxides of sulphur undergo once they're out of the engine and in the atmosphere. Sulphur oxides were one of the big contributors to the acid rain problem back in the '80s. The problem hasn't gone away completely, but thanks to a concerted international effort, it has been greatly reduced. Cleaning up the fuel at the refining stage was a big part of that.

On the ethanol issue: Blends of up to 10% ethanol are standard in Ontario now for lower grade (87 octane R+M/2) gasoline. In most places, you can also get ethanol-free 91-octane for about a 10% cost premium. But there haven't been too many ethanol-related problems reported. Maybe our additive packages are different, maybe it's our cooler weather.

If we do see tightening emission regulations, I suspect it will be for the same pollutants that the car industry is going after:
- Nitrogen oxides (NOx)
- Unburned hydrocarbons (HCs)
- Carbon monoxide (CO)
- Particulate matter (PM) in the case of diesels and gasoline-direct-injection

In a gas-engine car, the 3-way catalytic converter handles whatever amount of the first three is left over after all the engine controls have done the best they can. Frankly, in my experience they are neither as bulky nor as finicky as we often seem to think. The device is admittedly expensive ($250-$500) but, once installed, doesn't take up much space and requires no maintenance unless the engine control system is faulty. Putting one in a boat would require that the water injection be moved downstream of the converter, leaving you with a very hot segment of dry exhaust that would need heat shielding, etc. It would also require an oxygen sensor for the ECU to determine how close to perfectly stoichiometric it is running. Doable, with some engineering ingenuity.

There's been a lot of talk lately about particulate matter filters for heavy diesel trucks. But since most of the particulate emissions from these trucks happen when the engine is heavily loaded (ie, accelerating from a dead stop, or climbing a hill), this technology may not be as applicable to boats. (Does anyone have experience with one of these units yet?)

Fuel consumption (and therefore CO2 production) is also regulated in the car sector. Really, these are just different ways of stating how much fuel is consumed for a given distance travelled- differing only by a conversion factor (1 L/100km = 22.96 g CO2 / km for regular gasoline, use 26.05 for diesel). I don't see any regulations of this type coming in for boats- there is too great a variety of boat types for such regulation to be feasible.

[mudman]

My small boat has a Subaru automotive engine in it. I first had no emmissions controls on it. Case vents to atmosphere, also valve covers. I blocked off EGR and had straight pipes. I have plenty power this way, lots of air flow through the engine, but the engine compartment was covered in crap and needed constant cleaning.

Later on I hooked up the EGR and the PCV systems. No more blowby in the engine compartment, but I do have a loss of power. I also lower combustion temps with the EGR. It will pass emmissions tests on 89 octane. Oh yeah, it is carbed.

Now with that being said, I don't see why EGR and PCV along with a catatlitic converter could not be used on any engine. I'm sure that a catalic converter could be installed on a water jacket type exhaust system. There will be a loss of power using these emmissions controls, but it really is not that much. The only problem that I see is space.

Keeping an engine in tune will also help with the emmissions. Alot of people just don't know how to properly care for an engine.

You can add alcohol to your gas. Some guys do this to pass the emmissions laws in California for their cars. It is not a fix, it is temporary and is usually used to get their brake tag. The test is checking for unburned hydrocarbons, (rich mixture) and with alcohol added to the mix, the engine is still rich, it just does not show up on the test. I would not recommend alcohol. A properly tuned engine would not need it.

Egain, EGR's, PCV valves, cats, and charcol canisters are known tried and true methods of reducing emmissions. We have the technology. If it can be done in cars, why not boats.

[mudman]

My small boat has a Subaru automotive engine in it. I first had no emmissions controls on it. Case vents to atmosphere, also valve covers. I blocked off EGR and had straight pipes. I have plenty power this way, lots of air flow through the engine, but the engine compartment was covered in crap and needed constant cleaning.

Later on I hooked up the EGR and the PCV systems. No more blowby in the engine compartment, but I do have a loss of power. I also lower combustion temps with the EGR. It will pass emmissions tests on 89 octane. Oh yeah, it is carbed.

Now with that being said, I don't see why EGR and PCV along with a catatlitic converter could not be used on any engine. I'm sure that a catalic converter could be installed on a water jacket type exhaust system. There will be a loss of power using these emmissions controls, but it really is not that much. The only problem that I see is space.

Keeping an engine in tune will also help with the emmissions. Alot of people just don't know how to properly care for an engine.

You can add alcohol to your gas. Some guys do this to pass the emmissions laws in California for their cars. It is not a fix, it is temporary and is usually used to get their brake tag. The test is checking for unburned hydrocarbons, (rich mixture) and with alcohol added to the mix, the engine is still rich, it just does not show up on the test. I would not recommend alcohol. A properly tuned engine would not need it.

Egain, EGR's, PCV valves, cats, and charcol canisters are known tried and true methods of reducing emmissions. We have the technology. If it can be done in cars, why not boats.

[mydauphin]

Originally Posted by mudman

Now with that being said, I don't see why EGR and PCV along with a catatlitic converter could not be used on any engine. I'm sure that a catalic converter could be installed on a water jacket type exhaust system. There will be a loss of power using these emmissions controls, but it really is not that much. The only problem that I see is space.


You can add alcohol to your gas. Some guys do this to pass the emmissions laws in California for their cars. It is not a fix, it is temporary and is usually used to get their brake tag. The test is checking for unburned hydrocarbons, (rich mixture) and with alcohol added to the mix, the engine is still rich, it just does not show up on the test. I would not recommend alcohol. A properly tuned engine would not need it.

.

PCV work using engine vacumm. My diesel don't have vacumum, but the have Walker air sep does basically same function in a different manner.

EGR depends lower engine efficiency and would not work on very high output engines. It also increase fuel consumption.

Catalytic Converter require a very hot exhaust and are not compatible with wet exhaust. You would need a very hot dry exhaust to catalytic and then wet exhaust from there. This would be a problem in most engine compartments. And breakage and corrosion would be a big problem, different temperature, materials, water.... It is going to fail unless built from Titanium.

I think a wet exhaust scrubber with a contaminant removal system that then gets reinjected into engine is a better idea.

Alcohol or methanol injection or mixed with fuel also has problems particularly lower fuel economy. You need more fuel to go from A to B.

Here is the problem with a lot of Emissions stuff.
If it takes 10 gallons to go from A to B without emission control or Methanol
or it takes 14 gallons to go same distant with 20% less emission, which is better..

You see it is not that simple...

[mudman]

I see your point. My set up is different than a conventional boat. I have dry exhaust and am runing a gasoline engine, therefore I have the engine set up just as a car would be. I would think that any boat (gas or diesel) could run the same emmissions control as a car. Of course you will loose effiency, thats the nature of the beast.

[gonzo]

I think that there is misinformation about an aspect of emissions. mydauphin points out correctly that adding alcohol to the fuel, because it lowers the calory content, lower mileage. That is it uses more fuel per mile. The emission laws are written to calculate a percentage of emission per unit of fuel. If you use more fuel at a lower percentage of emissions the total may be the same or more. I don't have the statistics but would like to read them.