DDWFTTW - Directly Downwind Faster Than The Wind

[Guest625101138]

I did not see this test unit till now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-EoGbdyzE&NR=1


It is creative and much harder to dispute. There are a series of the clips.


It gets over the treadmill frame of reference problems.

[spork]

I did not see this test unit till now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-EoGbdyzE&NR=1
It is creative and much harder to dispute. There are a series of the clips.


It gets over the treadmill frame of reference problems.

Yes, very interesting case. This guy gave us LOADS of crap about not doing the right tests. He said he was too busy to do it, so we should (since JB and I aren't busy I suppose). But he came through and did two good tests - the turntable test, and the circular wind-tunnel test. He gets 1000 points for being in the extreme minority and getting off his butt to do the tests.

He loses 100 points for still not being convinced it works even after his own turntable tests proved it did. He also loses 328 points for lying to us about how some of his tests were performed until he was cornered into 'fessing up.

[spork]

Explain the fessing up bit!

I honestly don't remember the exact details. As I recall, I think it was related to his turntable not being powered, but rather coasting gradually to a stop while a steel ball rolled on it. When he was called on it, he eventually claimed that he intentionally lied about his experiment description because he was playing "spot the flaw in my story" or something of that sort. We explained that if you don't tell people to "spot the flaw in your story", you're simply lying. He claimed that if you told them to spot the flaw, it ruins the "spot the flaw" game.

In summary, he was sloppy and simply refused to admit it.

But like I said, he's still way ahead of 99.92% of the people because he actually did some experiments.

[spork]

I just noticed from one of your posts that you're an Aussie Rick. This guy is one of yours as I recall.

[Richard Atkin]

I am not prepared to enter the bet at this stage. I need to think about this a bit more. At first glance, I thought there was a flaw in the energy coming from the treadmill. I will need to think about it harder when I have the time and mental energy.

I am still skeptical but I have become intrigued by the efficiency of propellers as shown in those videos.

[Guest625101138]

Sorry spork. The new plane will have to wait!

Actually why don't you set up a web site for a DDWFTTW cart. Have you got some way to collect donations. Maybe the DDWFTTW foundation!!

Set out a plan with timeline and budget. See how much interest you can scare up. Maybe produce a little sponsorship memento. I would be prepared to donate. If some people are serious about $100k bets surely they would be prepared to give a donation to see it proven beyond doubt.

Go back to all the old forums and see what sort of response you can get.

You may even be able to get things like props and gears donated or at least at cost. if you publicise it. I can give you some contacts in this regard. No point doing unless it is well publicised.

Rick W

[Richard Atkin]

Spork, my brother took a look at it (I was too lazy - or stupid) and he thinks it does work. He is almost always right when it comes to things like this. Rick is always right aswell. I should've seen this coming....aaaaaaaagh...egg on my face. I will get my brother to explain it to me later.

ALL BETS ARE OFF, DUDE!!

I was never serious about taking your money anyway (that's the truth). I just wanted to see your level of conviction. If it turns out that the idea doesn't actually work (not likely) I would still never bet $100K unless I was betting with a rich person and I knew I couldn't lose.

It would be a fun toy to use on the cross-country cycleways currently being built around New Zealand if it is used in conjunction with pedals so the propeller doesn't need to be so big. Wind resistance is the biggest downer for cyclists.

[Richard Atkin]

Rick, his new website should be SPORKvsDORK.com

[spork]

Richard, I give you big points for keeping an open mind about this. There have been LOTS of people that insist this is impossible, and then simply become more and more insulting. You're on a very short list of folks that have said "hey, maybe I was wrong".

That being said, let me ask you if you're aware that ice-boats can tack their way downwind faster than the wind (and some sailboats can as well)?

This is a pretty well documented phenomenon. For the ice-boat guys, it's just an everyday thing.

I'm not saying that tacking downwind is the same thing - but it's the first step.

[spork]

Actually why don't you set up a web site for a DDWFTTW cart. Have you got some way to collect donations. Maybe the DDWFTTW foundation!!

Set out a plan with timeline and budget. See how much interest you can scare up. Maybe produce a little sponsorship memento. I would be prepared to donate. If some people are serious about $100k bets surely they would be prepared to give a donation to see it proven beyond doubt.

Go back to all the old forums and see what sort of response you can get.

You may even be able to get things like props and gears donated or at least at cost. if you publicise it. I can give you some contacts in this regard. No point doing unless it is well publicised.

I suggested this approach to JB as well. He doubts that we could get donations. I also did some research on blades, and have a good line on a set that I think would work great. Normally they run $2K, and I've got a guy with a set in his garage that will take $1K. Maybe I just have to commit to the idea of building this thing once the boredom sets in this winter.

[Richard Atkin]

Well Spork and Rick, my brother drew a diagram (very similar to Rick's explanation) and I didn't understand it because I am not used to thinking in physics equations. I never listened to my physics teacher at school.
But then I saw the 'wheels under the ruler' demonstration and noticed it looked very similar to my brothers diagram. BAM!!! My brain suddenly twisted itself in the right direction.

The ruler (wind) is trying to turn the big wheel (propeller) clockwise which in turn, tries to turn the little cotton reels (wheels) anticlockwise, but the ground exerts an opposing force on the cotton reels. Because the ground is effectively 'pushing' the lowest gear, it wins as far as the rotational directions are concerned. The end result is that while the ruler is pushing against the big wheel, the big wheel is ALSO pushing against the ruler. This must cause the vehicle to accelerate while the ruler remains at a constant speed. No matter how fast the big wheel travels in relation to the ruler, the ruler will always be able to push against it. As the vehicle continues to accelerate, it must be trying to slow the ruler down, but the ruler continues to collect kinetic energy from the person pushing it.

The wind is just like the ruler. The cart's propeller is actually trying to slow down ALL of the wind existing over it's travel path, but the wind's speed is maintained by the wind's source. The wind is slowed AT FIRST by the cart's resistance, but the wind will MAINTAIN it's own slower speed after that, without depleting (like the man who continues to push hard on the ruler which is moving slower than expected). I think this is where many people are getting confused. The cart's energy doesn't come from nowhere. It's nothing more than gearing.

I will post my brother's explanation soon (much better than mine).

By the way, I don't think it's necessary to include winnie the poo!! Are you trying to insult people to encourage them to bet $100K?

[spork]

Originally Posted by Richard Atkin

By the way, I don't think it's necessary to include winnie the poo!!

Perhaps not, but Michael C. (who made that video) is very sharp, and gifted when it comes to explaining subtle or complex concepts.

Are you trying to insult people to encourage them to bet $100K?

Not at all. I try very hard to have the discussion and explain how and why it works. I only offer the bet to people that are absolutely certain it doesn't.

I'll take a look at your brother's explanation. There are actually several correct ways to look at it - and some very interesting and counter-intuitive insights that come from understanding those explanations.

[Richard Atkin]

My brother re-posted his explanation with a correction. He gives his apologies

[Richard Atkin]

Probably the best way to first explain it to unscientific people like me, is to say "The propeller is never speeding up an apparent head wind - it is always slowing down a tail wind." (a scientist would rather use the term 'pressure differential' but my wording is better for us teddy bear huggers).
That ought to push a few critics in the right direction. From there they can learn how the whole system is based on gearing - not free energy.

Spork, I was thinking, if you actually build one that you can sit in, it will be impractical and dangerous without a big heavy protection cage, and all the non-believers will continue to non-believe. If you're going to do it, you will need to do official speed trials (no cage) in a spectacular way, on a windy day with lots of jounalists and hype so it gets in the magazines. I agree with Rick, publicise it. It is a popular story - 'Free Energy' and all that. Be a rock star....it's the only way.

[Guest625101138]

Peter Sharp kindly gave me reference to a proven device that clearly demonstrates how DDWFTTW craft operate. In this case the wind is replaced with a wire that is pulled from the aft of a torpedo. It is exactly the same concept as DDWFTTW only the wire, pulled from shore, replaces the wind.

If you can grasp how this works then you can appreciate how a DDWFTTW craft or vehicle operates.

It proves that the idea did serve a practical purpose. The details are given here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brennan_torpedo
As can be seen the performance was impressive.