Why the aren't boat design comunity like open source programing? or is...?

[tamkvaitis]

you can use this forum for this kind of work I started this thread because I was interested what NA's would think about idea like this. And I think you can see that nobody likes this idea very much, but if this idea would be organised by some kind of an organization (something similar to schologoza project in South africa) I think some of NA's would like to take part in this project. I hope there are still few altruistic people in the world. Ewerybody wants to have a little bit of fame.

[SailDesign]

While love the idea of "open-source" design, the practicality (see "Option One" forum) can be tough.
I liken the system to a Free Garage, where there are always 1 or 2 mechanics waiting to fix your car for free. It will never happen like that. Designers are in the business of selling designs. One-off designs mainly, and a few production ones. The folks who buiild the production boats do not want the plans available (rightly) and the owners of the one-offs do not want their boats public either.
That said, I have posted at least two Rhino hull files on this forum (see the I14 thread) because it was fun - and it was an unfinished, untested design. The "one surface" hull posted elsewhere is not a new design, but a couple of years old, so while you can see what I was thinking a few years ago, it does not tell you what I am thinking now
Steve

[Willallison]

I was - and will continue to be, once I have the time again - one of the active participants in the Option One thread to which Steve refers. I concur with all of his comments completely. Yet I would like to see the project come to some sort of conclusion - too many people put an enormous amount of effort into the project to see it just fade away (if it hasn't already...).
But one thing that was never really covered - and to which Steve and others have referred - is the issue of public liability. By releasing a design into the public domain - whether for free or not - you are opening yourself up to potential litigation should something happen down the track. Few people are prepared to take that kind of risk without some kind of insurance.
My participation in O-1 was also a way for me to learn - and I did learn a great deal. Thanks to the generosity of the members of this forum, I continue to do so.

[mmd]

Every time I read threads that contain some variation of the theme that computers have opened the world of yacht design to the masses I am reminded of a comment by a very accomplished naval architect I once worked for:

"Computers give us the ability to make bigger mistakes faster with greater confidence."

I don't have a problem with amateur designers per se. I have a problem with amateur designers who believe that they can design large, technically complex offshore cruising yachts as their first project. The skill of a good designer lies not in the individual tasks of creating form or calculating strength or installing machinery or creating a sail plan, but in the understanding of the subtleties of how all of these disciplines are interrelated. That level of intimacy with the design process cannot be programmed nor printed; it is a craft that must be learned by practice, instruction, and experience, and the best medium for learning a craft is to apprentice to a master. The software and drafting instruments are merely tools that can be mishandled by a novice.

Consider the craft of creating Samurai swords - arguably the apex of the craft of steelworking. If it was merely a process of hammering a piece of steel into the proper shape, why is a sword-maker apprenticed to a master for a decade or so before he can call himself a sword-maker? What could the master possibly teach beyond how to light a fire and swing a hammer?

[Willallison]

mmd - you've hit the sword on the head with a hammer.
I'm about to complete my Westlawn yacht design course. After 5 years of study, I figure I'm almost qualified to start learning.....

[SailDesign]

"They" do say that you don't go to college (or Westlawn) to learn how to do the job, but to learn the language so you can converse with those who will eventually teach you how to do the job.....
Steve

[lucas12]

I haven't read every post, so forgive if I'm repeating anything already said.
But as this is an ongoing political debate for myself and associates for the past decade. I'd like to add my 20cents worth.

When I use to design furniture based on all the surrounding elements that make up the concept to the fundamental design criteria plus the artistic license necessary to call something a DESIGN.
I would in the begining get upset when a competitor copied my concepts into their products.
I quickly learned that even though I'd spent months concieving an idea and $$$$ making proto types and large development costs and marketing, which needed recovery from production, I learnt that "plagerism is the greatest compliment one can recieive"
Not getting anoyed by it I was forced to develop faster and more cheaply a strategy to keep me in business, and so became a DESIGNER in truth, with a well lubricated mind that could quickly design, and so now almost a decade later I design complex systems and components for many industries and markets.
So without 'Giving Away' my designs I would never have evolved into the designer I am today who is conscious of ALL surounding influences and consequences of HOW TO design forefront technology in any job, and make a living.
The other advantages of being copied, is I can watch someone else evolve at their expense, something I may have missed and add to that within the newer version. And so the design copy cycle evolves towards a better design.

Lets say I'm a green as grass, staight out of uni boat designer.
I don't have bucks to build and test my idea for a hull, but plenty of people will tackle the design concept if it's free.
I can watch and learn how it turns out and make evealuations to my own design at no expence.
All I need to get started is a PC and software and basic knowledge.
My education and development is given in return for free also.
Appart from the including discaimers in the free design, and being honest about the design as 'unproven' you would expect honest feedback from those who took on the free design.
I am currently working on my own line of boats in design phase, and have opted to use a hull design that I am paying for, but given the design is a plan set, I cannot be 100% sure that the design is what it is sold to be.
I'm taking a moderate risk.
And if the deisigned hull doesn't perform as is stated I will crush the supplier like an egg.
If the design was free, I would accept the risk as my own.
And let the designer know what the evaluation was so the designer in respect would help me resolve the shortcomings of their design, so in that scenario we both learnt about the design, and the winner is the designer.
Being cost related in issue, I would not accept an unproven free design of anything over say 25' as the costs of finding out it's a lemon would be hurendous.
But on smaller craft the costs would be minimal, and the sort of education I enjoy in gaining a fuller understanding of principals of boat hull design.
All the best designers are from the school of hard knocks, the worst ones are uni grads that believe a lecturer and a text book is the end of being a true professional designer.
And someone who is keen and genuinly driven to understandng how to design with free design concept to begin with, will have better knowledge at the end of the project than someone who paid for a proven finished concept.
The person who lost his money when his boat sank from a free design is the guy I'd employ.
My 20 cents.
Simon

[wdnboatbuilder]

Well PAR, I have great respect for you but when I was working for Bob Sherbert he was commissioned by Luhrs to build a 52'ter, all they wanted was the lines plan and Luhrs would design the interior since they had their fancy computer programes. A drawing came back and the Refridge was sticking 3' outside the hull, the designer/engineer fail to check all veiws, it was quite comical. Then after moving our shop to ST. Aug. we had to redisign their 36'ter cuz an engineer had swept the chines back in which created a saucer bow, we ended up cutting 6" out of the FWD end. All of this was done by a man who quit the 8th grade to build boats. He ended up holding the record run in a sportfish from Miami to New York, 7 times.
But for you to ask a question about design and you got cussed out and if he was not up in his years he would have kick some butt. I notice that Luhrs has 3 of his designs 36, 44, 52.

[Raggi_Thor]

Bruce, I think interior designers in boats have to work in 3D, otherwise it's to much work to check all views.

One funny story from my neighbours here, they had used a cad operator who simply scaled the engine 95% to make it fit on the drawing. Yoy can imagine the hassle when the engine arrived :-)

[wdnboatbuilder]

if it is too much work to check to see if it will work then maybe they should go back to pencil and paper, sorry RAggi thats no excuse.

Were you able to shrink the engine 5%? lol if it won't fit the drawing then it won't fit the boat..... it's a simple process.

[Raggi_Thor]

I agree it's no excuse..

The engine was hard to shrink :-)
It had to be placed on higher beds, taking more room of the fish tank and it was alot of work...

[JR-Shine]

Investing many thousands of dollars in materials, oh yeah and your life hangs in the balance - the design is not the place to save $$$. Beware of people who do not value their own time - they have nothing to loose.

[granddaughter]

Well PAR, I have great respect for you but when I was working for Bob Sherbert he was commissioned by Luhrs to build a 52'ter, all they wanted was the lines plan and Luhrs would design the interior since they had their fancy computer programes. A drawing came back and the Refridge was sticking 3' outside the hull, the designer/engineer fail to check all veiws, it was quite comical. Then after moving our shop to ST. Aug. we had to redisign their 36'ter cuz an engineer had swept the chines back in which created a saucer bow, we ended up cutting 6" out of the FWD end. All of this was done by a man who quit the 8th grade to build boats. He ended up holding the record run in a sportfish from Miami to New York, 7 times.
But for you to ask a question about design and you got cussed out and if he was not up in his years he would have kick some butt. I notice that Luhrs has 3 of his designs 36, 44, 5



I just had to correct you on one think Bob Sherbert quite school in the 3rd grade so he could help his dad build boats. It was during the depression. Yet he could read and do math better than most any one out there. I could not tell you how many designs he did for companys besides all the boats he built. He passed away last year for those of you who did not know.

His loving Granddaughter.

[JR-Shine]

I was lucky too thumb through some of your grandfathers drawings just last weekend. Its was a 33' express. Very pretty boat. My best friend's father built many of his designs (Graves).

[wdnboatbuilder]

To the loving grand daughter,
I loved working for your grandfather he was a great man. Luhrs wanted the design and it was a funny day when came down from the loft and show me Luhrs first interior drawings, the frig was 6" outside the hull. the 52ftr was a fun boat to build. Also don't forget that he redisigned the 35-36 ftr because the chines came so far in and had such a saucer bow that it would not get on plane. I use alot of what Bob taught me or should I say learned through watching.

JR you should feel lucky to review those drawings, I did not think Kay would let them out.

By the way how is your grandmother Lucy doing.

I really enjoyed working with Bob, Lucy, and Kay. Definently a family that knows their stuff.

Well anything written about Bob I'm interested in. Thats for bring him up again.
Tell Kay I said hello.
Bruce Crouse