Why the aren't boat design comunity like open source programing? or is...?

[nero]

An organized free plan depot would be an excellent resource for both professional and DIY designers and builders.

Since nothing is ever created anymore. Design is simply taking ideas from other similiar projects or from unrelated objects and compiling the idea into a "new design" (then adding the 'I did it' stamp of ego) Engineering is a science and not intended to be included in this idea)

Imagine a structured sets of hull shapes (like NACA foil series). From these basic shapes a series of boat plans based on several build methods could be designed. This would illiminate the repetition of starting from scratch. By combining this fictious hull series with a unified scantling system, a program could give instant base plans for hulls.

Also a complete structured set of rudders, daggerboards, masts, booms, etc. with plans and engineering data for each size, shape, and material build method. Then some corporation could set up a series of molds that could make a production run of "industry-wide standardized" parts. Daggerboards and rudders might become cheaper to buy than to make. Uniformity would make interchangeable parts and with easy replacement and upgrades.

Designers and NA could then free them selves from trying to make money. They could express their talents in design and creativenes paid by the rich owners/corporations trying to race of snobb their clubmate. Or re-engineering classic designs paid for by the first client and all production builders.

DIY's could find something to dream about and then build/assemble ... safetly ... (realitively) Having someone commited to actualy building a design could be benefitial to new NA's portfolio.

If NA's want to hold marketing value of their design service, then simply restrict or withhold their plans for 2 - 5 years after the first build of that design sails. By the time any other not for profit builder makes this boat another several years will have past. And the designer/NA will have advanced and developed his art to another level ... or simply decided to go sailing and enjoy life.

just an idea so don't get to worked up about it.

[jam007]

Please don't put equal sign between the OpenSource idea and amateurism. No happy amateurs made: Linux, Apache, MySQL, Open Office, FireFox etc etc etc
And many of them are making good money on Open Source (MySQL is one of them)

The Open Source idea is beneficial to all since it helps promoting and vetting ideas and spreads knowledge. The good NA´s will prosper and the bad are more easely spoted and avoided.
Since all NA´s here are at the top of their profession you will all win

Anders M

[greg simpson]

perhaps people could submit their own designs on the forum, openly letting themselves in for constructive criticism,and at the same time letting people who arent boat designers or who dont have the necessary skills have the inspiration from the designs and advice from people 'in the know' to temper their peerhaps far-fetched or their 'dream designs' with common, practical and theoretical sense of the said people with the knowlegde, remembering that a little knowlegde can be more dangerous than no knowlegde at all.

just a thought.

ps going to post this as a new thread too,see what response we get.

[Caldera Boats]

PAR,

Yes, I agree there are very good, even great NA's designing boats, but there are also some really bad apples. I have built boats completely designed from formulas that did not perform correctly and needed to be altered after initial water tests.

I do not agree with discouraging amateurs from self design, this is where new discoveries can be made. Thinking outside the box and arbitrary to common practice has its benefits. It is amazing sometimes how a person not confined by "the rules" of design can visualize things differently.

As for safety, this comes back down to common sense. I would hope that an amateur self designed boat builder would not take others out to sea without fully testing his invention. Although I have seen people do some pretty stupid things in boats over the years.

What it really boils down to, is some folks have what it takes and some don't...

R. M. Domico
Happy Building

[D'ARTOIS]

I know from a few cases that there are retired N A's who have given their designs in the public domain, but what is the issue? First of all for practical reasons: a single design consists of a whole package of drawings next to this and VERY IMPORTANT - belongs the actual manual of building specifications -: materialtypes, grades, type of gear etc.etc.
How do you get these? Who is going 1000 miles from you to copy 25 or so large drawings.

Frankly speaking - if you cannot find a proper design within your budget, don't bother to think about boats. It's a waist of time.

Even if you have a drawing or a whole set of drawings, you have to be a boatbuilder or a Naval Architect to know what to do with it.

People who wouldn't even think of building their own hous are talking about the building of boats as being a little thing.....

[Caldera Boats]

AMATURE DESIGN CONTEST!!!!

I love it!

What about using FREEShip as the initial design software. It is free and available to all.

A few considerations for design parameters:

1. Must be a sail boat
2. Small and inexpensive enough for the average person to build and test.
3. FREEship files "open source", available for others to download on this forum.
4. ???


If your design wins, you could be famous
The more people who build your "open source" design would only increase your fame.

Keep this contest truly “open source” This way others could steal and change others contestants designs to make their own, which would only increase the creativity and encourage ingenuity. Eventually a true design winner would emerge from the bunch.

These are only ideas, feel free to add your own.

R. M. Domico

[Billy Bones]

There's nothing new under the sun. Didn't Duckworks mag do an amateur design contest a while back?

And I wholeheartedly second D'Artois's comment about plans above.

Comparing boat plans to open source software is a bit naive, I'm sorry to say. In order to play the software game, an understanding of very complex computer programming is the price of admission. And with software, if you screw up no one is hurt and thousands or tens of thousands of dollars of materials aren't lost.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Caldera Boats

AMATURE DESIGN CONTEST!!!!

A few considerations for design parameters:

2. Small and inexpensive enough for the average person to build and test.

R. M. Domico

Whats small and inexpensive to me might not be for others. For a design to fit the build-able by the average person requirement, we have to know the average person's ability.

Part of the expense is for tools. Limit the design to hand tools only?
Limit the size to a common one car garage?
Limit the materials to average building supply store? (aka Home Depot in the US)
Limit the construction time?

What defines the "winner"?

I like the idea, but I'll bet it will take a month just to agree on the design limits.

[SailDesign]

A great many designers, both professional and amateur, have put their designs up here for comment and/or ridicule. If you look through the forums, you will find one finished hullform from me (an International14) and others from other folks. This forum exists for that very reason. Are all of the designs "finished"? Well, probably not as delivered to this forum. Most are renderings, or are photos of finished boats.
If you want to see evidence of the sort of "Open Source" boat design you are talking about, why not check into the "Option One" and "Option Two" forums? This concept is nothing new.....
Steve

[boltonprofiles]

I just wonder if you would be of the same opinion if you were going to be personally liable and responsible for the results of a bad accident due to a design flaw.....................even from a moral stand point.

My opinion only, but some dangerous and irresponsible material here - no one is saying anyone is stupid or incapable of designing or building their own boat - only that what is more dangerous than no knowledge at all is perhaps having a little knowledge on any subject.

It is a ridiculous notion that it is all down to money and that there is somehow a worldwide conspiracy against the ordinary enthusiast building a boat.

I just hope that the unthinkable never happens to anyone who decides to do so.

[nero]

"worldwide conspiracy" not at all! ... At least not concerning boat design. smile

and it is quite true that not everyone is capable of "designing" a useful or functional boat. ... even if an engineer was to take the design and calculate build plans for it.

Since we here at boatdesign.net are a mix of professionals, amatures, seasoned builders, and enthusiastic beginners; Maybe it should be noted that a design is not a finished, structurally engineered plan to be built.

Also, plans and any other info from a central knowledge bank should be taken as "use at own risk". This would relieve the argument of "personally liable and responsible for the results". Kinda of an anarchy and anti-insurance company (mafia) point of view.

In my previous post, my motivation is to freely exchange information and experiance (idealist that I sometimes am). If someone has the capacity to understand and utilize that information ... and or contribute to the pool that would be honerable.

It is often clear to comprehend the personality, experience, interests, and reliability of the people who post replies here. Likewise with designs and plans. When read and studied the merit of the boat or part plan will show.

There are many nice renderings being posted. Not much on supporting structures or system details. ex. rudder and support diagrams. (bridge deck structures would be helpful for me. hint hint)

Of course this is from a personal point of view, I am not a NA or doing this for profit. I can imagine builders and want to be designers come in all levels of experience and skill levels. My weekness is engineering/math skills.

next

[Inquisitor]

I’ve been doing software development for twelve years and find open source to be a great idea for software! It only works because of well-defined interfaces… most commonly done through classes. However, if you have been around long enough and actually worked on other people’s production software code based on procedural programming methods, you would know exactly what can go wrong and always does. You end of breaking something else!

In my limited but intense (due to curiosity) analytical look at the way a boat is designed (“Principles of Yacht Design” details the process.) I find it unlikely at best, and nearer on impossible at worst an open-source equivalent could occur in boat design. Even if multiple engineers are involved on a project at one boat company, there is still one lead responsible for keeping all assumptions and design methodologies cohesive. Open source software does not require that… you follow the rules of the interface and “supposedly” you won’t break anything. Even that is often a pipe dream! In a sail boat (and particularly a monohull) near everything must be tuned to everything else. It would be like having a million global variables in the Linux kernel that are freely changeable by any “open source developer”. There simply is no correlation between software and sail boat design.

Sorry D’Artois, but I have to reference your thread: “The Ideal Cruiser – a long range passage maker” in a negative light. My point can be summed up by his comment nearly three months and 218 posts down the road…

Originally Posted by D'ARTOIS

So, we are back where I started: read my thread - 1st post.

Tamkvaitis, You ought to read through that entire thread to get a picture of your open source boat community. There are too many egos (some justifiable) too many opinions and way too many ways to approach a goal and no clear leadership. Do you really want that many people making decisions for you… some that you may not even know about!

A work of art HAS NEVER been built by committee… always a tyrant! Otherwise, you get a rolling, butt ugly, piece of **** like the Pontiac Aztek that doesn’t excel at any one feature… “oh, we can make it float too.” That reminds me of the Baby Ruth bar in Caddyshack!

And professionally… do you really believe any professional architect is going to have his name associated with a group design! Hell no! There’s a lot more liability in boat design than software design.

[h_zwakenberg]

I've tried to set up an open source yacht design project, just as you suggested. Check out http://www.mini-650.de

In my experience, a lot of people are very interested at first, and then stop short of helping or joining. It's been a bit frustrating for me, that's why I'm currently considering to revoke 'that community thing' completely and plough on on my own...

bye

Hans

[D'ARTOIS]

We are a mix of - one of our fellow members has already made this point - pro's and amateurs and whatever comes next.

We are here to exchange idea's - options and we help others ahead.

You cannot expect that we are giving away the knowledge we had to invest a lot. Neither will you.

Sometimes we dwell away from our target - no problem because this is leisure and we may help some people who were otherwise lost.

The passagemaker issue is one of the most difficult topics in boating: only a few have the experience and the rest would like to acquire it.

Next to that, the bigger boats are hardly at discussion here. It's most small boats and nothing about that can cruise in great comfort.

So that is why it lacks to hit.

No problem, I have set my way, so have others.

[SamSam]

Originally Posted by tamkvaitis

I am sailing for 17 years. I have decided to create and build a sailboat. I found a lot of projects articles and drawings in the internet. But I havent found anything like free designs, drawings etc.. Why there aren't anything like that?

I'm not really sure what it is you're looking for but there are a few free plans for sailboats here... Sam

http://www.svensons.com/boat/