The Raid Boat

[duluthboats]

Lately I have noticed a growing interest in small open sailing/rowing boats of the type that are capable of participating in a Raid. It may be that it is just my increased interest in this type because of my new location that has made me noticed them. I have reduced my fleet to two solo canoes and have decided that my next boat will allow me to explore this fantastic Pacific Northwest coastline. The Raid boat thread will be a collaborative effort to design a boat but more importantly to understand all the details involved in such a design. I’m starting with only a few conditions, safe, affordable, 1-2 crew, Raid capable. The rest at this point is wide open and will be like Option One, with polls as we go along. I know this type of collaboration rarely yields a conclusive result but the process leads to and increased understanding. My free time is limited so I will only be a contributor not a moderator, I hope it will take off on it’s own.

Gary

[duluthboats]

For those not familiar with Raids here is a link to a Raid that is organized by a forum member. http://www.shipyardraid.ca/ Most entrants use the boat they have if it fits the requirements; they seem to be good under sail or driven by oars. A few boats have been designed and built with a specific Raid in mind. Conditions in the area of the Raid may dictate design choices, but I think a design that finds a balance between sail and oar will be an able participant and bring much enjoyment. These boats are the boats of our past they are from a time when people made a living on their boat.

Gary

[Willallison]

Yippee - another project - I love these (though I have no real time to contribute much )
1st - couple of questions

Are there restrictions on the building materials and type of construction? Though I guess you'd prefer timber regardless...

Is there a 'style' requirement - must the boats be traditional in appearance?

Do you have to sail and row without modification - so for instance, could you have a ballasted centreboard that could be removed from the boat during rowing legs?

I'm thinking cold-molded, lightweight with an unstayed mast & removable rig. And as eluded to above, a removable centreboard.
Hell - lets throw in some sliding seats for rowing that can be pivoted out to the sides for trapeze-like bailing out!

Am I missing the spirit.....?

[waikikin]

I missed the spirit entirely- head ran away with thoughts of a jet sprint style Mad Max creation, then I looked at Garys link- looks like a pretty nice way to spend some time.Regards from Jeff.

[duluthboats]

For the Shipyard School Raid, boats will be traditional sail-and-rowing craft between 4.5 m or 15' and 7.9 m or 26' LOA; however, the race committee has the final decision on eligibility. That leaves a lot of room but would exclude the average roto-molded tri. The word traditional is not well definded. I have looked at other Raid sites and some are very open with classes and others are restricted. For the purpose of this thread lets go with the above discription with the added restriction of no multihulls and see where that leads us.

Gary

[SailDesign]

Looks like fun, Gary - thanks.
Steve

[duluthboats]

We have a rough idea of this boats intended use. So would the next step be a good estimate of the load it will carry?
2 big crew members at 220lbs/100kg each.
Personal gear=?
Water and food for 3 days=?
Safety equipment=?
Boat tack=?
Other=?
Total=?
Are there charts that will give us a starting point for these unknown weights?

Gary

[duluthboats]

Experience with canoe tripping tells me to allow 70lbs/32kg per person for gear, clothes, tent, rain fly, and misc. Add about 5lbs/2.3kg for food and a gallon of water per day per person plus some extra.
Gear = 140lbs/64kg
Food = 30lbs/13.6kg
Water = 9gal/34l = 75lbs/34kg
Total =275lbs/125kg
There is the sail rig, oars, and safety gear, wow; the weight is getting up there. Are my numbers in the ball park so far?

Gary

[Willallison]

hmmm - guess the ballasted degerboard and sliding trapeze seats are are out then..
My1st thought was that you could go for a variation on the recreational rowing shell that I was keen to build a while back

Recreational Rowing Shell

But this was a row-boat only. Having to be aable to sail it as well adds a fair bit of complexity in that unless you have some form of ballast, then the only simple way of incorporating some form stability is by increasing the beam: which of course is the enemy of any rowing boat.
So what we (well...you ) really need is a boat with a fairly narrow waterline when upright, but with a rapidly increasing beam as the boat heels. This will make it a bit tippy mind you....

as far as your gear goes - is a gallon of water per day sufficient for two people who are going to be working pretty hard?
I would have thought you'd get away with rather less for the personal gear though. I wouldn't lug 64kg of gear out to the boat each time I take a family of four away for a week, let alone 2 people who are out to rough it...

[duluthboats]

Will, I want to thank you for chiming into what appears to be not such a hot thread. ;0
I have allowed 1 gal per day per person plus 50% for 3 days, this should be sufficient for weekending along the coast. The weight of gear may sound heavy to you so think of it this way. You are island hoping for three days in an open small boat with another person. You have to bring something to sleep in, to cook on, to cook with, clothes for good and foul weather. I think you would be surprised at the total when you start to add every little thing up.
I know I’m being a bit clumsy about this but I hope this is the way to start, define the intended use and the load and go from there.

Gary

[Willallison]

Righto - I think I need a brief lesson on what goes on with these Raid thingy's. My (brief) look at the link to Tad's stuff gave the impression of a competition over a number days, with both rowing and sailing involved.
Are there separate events each day?
Is the rowing & sailing separated into individual competitions?
Or do you simply have to make your way from point A to point B over X days using whichever means of propulsion you deem the quickest?
Do you sleep on board? (can you sleep on board?)
Do you eat on board?

As for chiming in with my 2 cents worth - I love these collaborative things. History may suggest they they won't always result in the construction of a boat, but they're usually good fun - and I always learn something...

[Raggi_Thor]

I have read about raids in Finland, Sweden and Scotland (Caledonia Canal).
It seems like they stop every night and sleep in tents on land.
Water can be filled every morning, so you can probably carry only what you drink during the day.

One friend here in Norway is probably making the common mistake of designing a new boat for maximum speed while I think good overall performance in light winds and under oars is more important.

[SeaSpark]

Link to a modern raid boat:

http://www.nauticaltrek.com/petite_elisa.htm

It performed very well in the Blekinge Archipelago Raid, text is in French but pictures speak for themselves. Don't like the looks as much as the classic raid boats but something like this should be easy to build light.

[Raggi_Thor]

Yes, something like that with a round bottom!
Plywood topsides with strip planked bottom :-)
Maybe the small cabin is too much?
Why not just a boom tent?

[Raggi_Thor]

Babelfish translation of the french page:
http://world.altavista.com/babelfish...tite_elisa.htm