My renovation project

[HakimKlunker]

Hi Mac Speedy. Are you still following this thread?
I saw that hint about Q-cell, and also would say that this is perhaps not the best choice; from my observation Q-cell makes a quite brittle material - that should only work if nothing moves or flexes.
I also find that thinner has no place in resin. If you find that the wood is too deteriorated, it may be better to think of replacing these parts.

[whitepointer23]

Originally Posted by HakimKlunker

Hi Mac Speedy. Are you still following this thread?
I saw that hint about Q-cell, and also would say that this is perhaps not the best choice; from my observation Q-cell makes a quite brittle material - that should only work if nothing moves or flexes.
I also find that thinner has no place in resin. If you find that the wood is too deteriorated, it may be better to think of replacing these parts.

you better read the posts , it is bote cote epoxy resin , you don't add thinners to it. you use the q cells to thicken it enough for use as glue. a shipwright told me to use the q cells , it certainly is not brittle.

[PAR]

Whitepointer23, I'm not sure what your problem is, but very clearly you haven't the understanding, research, nor appropriate background to discuss this issue intelligently, which in itself suggest something, as you attempt to debate the merits of chemistry and physical properties you plainly don't grasp.

I'm not going to take up the discussion any further, as you obviously haven't a real clue what you're talking about, in spite of being informed by, likely well meaning, but mis-informed shipwrights. If you had any real sense about you, at once you'd gather the information you need from one of many sources on line, in regard to the physical and chemical properties of epoxy resin (assuming you could understand it) and it's interaction with different filler materials, but instead you've just stood up at the bar, to see how many logic shots you can do before falling down. No one, not even the Bote Coat folks, would recommend Q-cells as the filler material of choice for a glue mixture. Look it up and get back to us with an informed idea of what really works in the matrix.

[macspeedy]

so i shouldnt use epoxy ??

well the glue i am using is great .... balcotan....

I realise now there is more to boat building and renovation than i first thought...

Thanks for the info and advice..

Mac

[Pericles]

Macspeedy,

Yes, you should use epoxy.

http://www.wessex-resins.com/

Read it all. Their training courses are very worthwhile. I enjoyed my visit 6 years ago, because there are always new things to learn.

http://www.robbins.co.uk/Pdf%20Files...nformation.pdf

P

[HakimKlunker]

Originally Posted by macspeedy

so i shouldnt use epoxy ??
Mac

Epoxy is the best choice in my eyes, too.
It only has its own features that cannot be ignored.
Product producers (Pericles meanwhile named many references) give you lots of useful information of what you can do and what not.
We at the forum try the same

Q-cell: I found that I was a little inaccurate - it becomes brittle when it is applied thick (width, not consistency) and this may happen in places. However, it is engineered as a filler but not for bonding. You can look up 'Microfibres' as an alternative (WEST system).

Balcotan: You better check where it is compatible for marine environment and how good it is for structural bonding.
It is PU based. As it works with moisture, it may be suitable for you if you cannot dry your boat properly or sufficiently.
It is perhaps a bad idea to mix EP and PU technology during the renovation; better choose your system and stick to it.
It is also good to think about the paint work early. So you can match the materials and procedures. Depends a little on what quality standard you want to achieve, how much time and money you want to put in.

I also knew a ship wright once: He was later fired for incompetence - - -
and he cursed too much
I am not watching TV: I concentrate on the topic

Happy Easter by the way...

[whitepointer23]

Originally Posted by PAR

Whitepointer23, I'm not sure what your problem is, but very clearly you haven't the understanding, research, nor appropriate background to discuss this issue intelligently, which in itself suggest something, as you attempt to debate the merits of chemistry and physical properties you plainly don't grasp.

I'm not going to take up the discussion any further, as you obviously haven't a real clue what you're talking about, in spite of being informed by, likely well meaning, but mis-informed shipwrights. If you had any real sense about you, at once you'd gather the information you need from one of many sources on line, in regard to the physical and chemical properties of epoxy resin (assuming you could understand it) and it's interaction with different filler materials, but instead you've just stood up at the bar, to see how many logic shots you can do before falling down. No one, not even the Bote Coat folks, would recommend Q-cells as the filler material of choice for a glue mixture. Look it up and get back to us with an informed idea of what really works in the matrix.

i only said what worked for me, you really are a cranky old fart if anyone dares to contradict you. i stand by what i said, if the joint is stronger than the wood it is joining how can it be no good.

[Pericles]

WP23,

Just as long as macspeedy does not follow your "it works for me" attitude, he should be ok. The Bote-Cote epoxy resin bonds the wood as one would expect. AFAIK, it is not exported to the UK.

The addition of Q-cells rather than other recommended fillers can lead to brittleness, Why not use the correct fillers? Then the joint will be even stronger. We are not suggesting your way does not work; only that it can be improved. You are not against progress are you?

P

[whitepointer23]

Originally Posted by Pericles

WP23,

Just as long as macspeedy does not follow your "it works for me" attitude, he should be ok. The Bote-Cote epoxy resin bonds the wood as one would expect. AFAIK, it is not exported to the UK.

The addition of Q-cells rather than other recommended fillers can lead to brittleness, Why not use the correct fillers? Then the joint will be even stronger. We are not suggesting your way does not work; only that it can be improved. You are not against progress are you?

P

you are right and i am more than happy to listen to a good reply like this one. when you come out attacking like par does it gets my heckles up. what i was talking about to start with was not actually about glueing but pouring epoxy or everdure along the inside of the keel to solidify and preserve the wood which both those products will do. anyway my apologies to everyone for having an opinion.

[PAR]

No one attacked you, but your methods aren't sound, nor are they good practice, nor recommended by any of the major epoxy formulators and frankly are not something that should be perpetuated to novices. It's this type of disinformation that screws up well meaning folks and colors the net with a pale hue of unreliability or inaccuracy with information gathering attempts. I'm sorry your shipwright buddy was wrong, but I'll bet he also thinned his epoxy too, another one of my pet peeves in regard to doing it properly, when working with goo.

Way too many of these "home brewed" concepts and "special mixtures" have been launched, just to screw up other people's stuff. These same types of individuals are still trying to work on cars today, not knowing they're doing more harm then good. They're using techniques that may have once worked with different technology (like polyester resin systems for example) and attempting to make them work on different chemistry, without a clue about what they're screwing with.

I just replaced a mass air flow sensor (not a cheap part) on a buddy's expensive import (car). His other 'ol buddy tuned it up, in spite of my insistence he take to a real technician. This clown sprayed carb cleaner down into the mass flow sensor, while the engine was running, which completely removed the special precious metal plating inside the mass flow unit. Oops . . . I read the codes on the car about a week later and told him the bad news and several hundred bucks later he was good to go. I'm sure his buddy the "mechanic" was once quite good, but he, like may in the marine industry hasn't kept up and now is lagging so far behind the curve that he's screwing **** up, not helping.

So, use your fairing compound balloons or spheres as your glue filler and continue being ill informed and now too stubborn to look it up, but if you do it for money on someone else's stuff or recommend someone here do the same, you can bet I'm going to call you on it, because it's exactly this type of misinformation that makes the net an unreliable place at times.

[whitepointer23]

Originally Posted by PAR

No one attacked you, but your methods aren't sound, nor are they good practice, nor recommended by any of the major epoxy formulators and frankly are not something that should be perpetuated to novices. It's this type of disinformation that screws up well meaning folks and colors the net with a pale hue of unreliability or inaccuracy with information gathering attempts. I'm sorry your shipwright buddy was wrong, but I'll bet he also thinned his epoxy too, another one of my pet peeves in regard to doing it properly, when working with goo.

Way too many of these "home brewed" concepts and "special mixtures" have been launched, just to screw up other people's stuff. These same types of individuals are still trying to work on cars today, not knowing they're doing more harm then good. They're using techniques that may have once worked with different technology (like polyester resin systems for example) and attempting to make them work on different chemistry, without a clue about what they're screwing with.

I just replaced a mass air flow sensor (not a cheap part) on a buddy's expensive import (car). His other 'ol buddy tuned it up, in spite of my insistence he take to a real technician. This clown sprayed carb cleaner down into the mass flow sensor, while the engine was running, which completely removed the special precious metal plating inside the mass flow unit. Oops . . . I read the codes on the car about a week later and told him the bad news and several hundred bucks later he was good to go. I'm sure his buddy the "mechanic" was once quite good, but he, like may in the marine industry hasn't kept up and now is lagging so far behind the curve that he's screwing **** up, not helping.

So, use your fairing compound balloons or spheres as your glue filler and continue being ill informed and now too stubborn to look it up, but if you do it for money on someone else's stuff or recommend someone here do the same, you can bet I'm going to call you on it, because it's exactly this type of misinformation that makes the net an unreliable place at times.

fair enough, i have given my reasons for the replys i have left and i understand what you are saying. good luck to macspeedy with his reno.

[macspeedy]

Well its been a while but the rebuild is going well and most parts have been either fab'd or bought its just a case of putting it all together !!

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...hp?photo=20075

[whitepointer23]

looking good mac.

[macspeedy]

update !!!

first sea trial yesterday all went really well ! so cool !!

bigger trips out coming soon !

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...hp?photo=20975

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...hp?photo=20974

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...hp?photo=20973

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...hp?photo=20972

[macspeedy]

update !!!

first sea trial yesterday all went really well ! so cool !!

bigger trips out coming soon !

pics below hopefully !