My renovation project

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by macspeedy, Apr 1, 2011.

  1. macspeedy
    Joined: Mar 2011
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    Location: Scotland

    macspeedy Junior Member

    whitepointer23,

    Thanks that looks like it must have looked, its still has the small fordeck.

    Going to fit a console up at the front starboard side !

    Mac
     
  2. macspeedy
    Joined: Mar 2011
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    Location: Scotland

    macspeedy Junior Member

    Renovation update

    Well some progress but feeling like i have gone a bit backwards, but progressing, just need to plod on...

    photos attached of the inside as mentioned.

    I have had to take apart the transom as the wood was rotten, another bodge i am fixing by a previous owner.

    images will be added as soon as approved.
     
  3. macspeedy
    Joined: Mar 2011
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    Location: Scotland

    macspeedy Junior Member

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    stern with transom outer layer only left, new ply planned to be fitted and glued in place.

    [​IMG]

    most of the old paint gone looking not too bad.

    [​IMG]

    bow is looking good bit more stripping here to do...
     
  4. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    make sure you have a good dig along the inside where the ply bottom sheets meet the keel, it is a water trap along there. if it is a bit soft let it dry out and hit it with everdure or thinned epoxy, puts the strength back and seals the join.
     
  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Thinned epoxy doesn't put the strength back into rotten wood and more importantly, lets moisture in and limits it's ability to get, further making issues. No one should ever thin epoxy without a very complete understanding of the chemistry involved.

    Well, how bad could it be, right? Well if you modestly thin straight epoxy by 15% with denatured alcohol, then the compressive strength drops by 65% and the tension strength drops by about 55%. If you cut by 20%, then the numbers make a huge jump with a 70% decrease in over all strength. This is how bad it can be folks, so know what you're doing before you try these techniques. Water proof qualities also drops to that below polyurethane varnish, meaning your thinned goo isn't doing a damn thing in this regard.
     
  6. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    i probably didn't explain properly. i used bote cote epoxy which is thin and runny, you add q cells to thicken it for glue. it did add strength , it was a hartley i done this to and it saved a lot of woodwork. i am not a professional like you par but i know what works and what doesn't from experience, i actually use boats .
     
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I actually use boats as well (amazingly enough). Q-cells are a light weight quartz microsphere, filler material and adds no strength to resin. In fact, if you enough to make it thicker then catchup, then it dramatically weakens the strength of epoxy! How much weaker? About 60% weaker if you mix up a non-sagging batch!

    As a rule the filler materials used in epoxy (or other plastic resin systems), that are smooth when you look at them under a microscope (like spheres and balloons), are not going to do anything except bulk up and/or thicken resin. These are most commonly used as fairing compounds or used to eased sanding chores. They add encased air to the mixture, which is a lot easier to sand then resin. On the other hand, filler materials that are rough and fibrous under the microscope add strength (for the most part, some are better at some things then others), such as cotton flock (West 403), silica, calcium metacilicate (West 404), wood flour, milled 'glass fibers, etc. Because of their fibrous nature, they cause and interlocking relationship with each other in the cured matrix, plus most are generally quite porous, so they have lots of extra surface area for the resin to grab a hold of.

    In short, Q-cells make a poor glue, though a good bulking agent.
     
  8. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    wp23 wrote;

    "i am not a professional like you par but i know what works and what doesn't from experience, i actually use boats ." (sic) That's not polite.

    So, as you used thinned epoxy, are you therefore prepared to accept that your repaired Hartley Australian is not as strong as it should be, had you used the correct materials, WP23?

    PAR has given you the figures, 65% down on compressive strength and 55% down on tensile strength, when the dilution factor is 15%.

    Before you mentioned Bote-Cote as being runny, you previously mentioned everdure, which might be Epiglass Everdure, right? If so, it might be instructional for macspeedy to read this Woodenboat Forum thread.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?1204-Epiglass-Everdure

    Macspeedy, let this inspire you. Look what Peter Freebody started with!

    http://www.peterfreebody.com/downloads/Classic_Boat_Issue150_2000.pdf

    P

    Addendum:

    Just found this thread. Should be required reading.

    Extract:

    "I am part of the Boatcraft Pacific team. We manufacture the Bote-Cote Epoxy system. I have had the contribution by bniederer brought to my attention.

    One of the problems with forums is that it is so easy for any one to make apparently authoritative statements, and it can be so hard for the subsequent readers to perceive that they are wholly or substantially incorrect. Mr bniederer's statement is one such, and I feel that in the interests of balance that a reply is needed." Read on.


    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?122793-Bote-Cote-epoxy
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
  9. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    i realise you know what you are talking about but i have thickened epoxy resin several times and it is very strong, the wood breaks before the glue lets go.
     
  10. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    i am only trying to help macspeedy with his boat using methods i and a lot of other people use, i am not here trying to make myself look like the god of the boat building world. instead of running off at the mouth like you seem to do a lot, get some epoxy and q cells, glue up some plywood and then try and pull it apart. the only thing you came up was to build a complete new boat using the old one for a mold , how does that relate to renovating the hull he has. maybe you should read the question before you answer.
     
  11. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Then help him instead of giving him crap advice, poorly typed I might add. You do seem overly defensive about your methods and I am confident you did not follow the links to the Woodenboat Forum, because had you done so, you would not persist in your advocacy of Q-cells, rather than the fillers posted by PAR. Are you a Q-cell salesman? :)

    It's a truth that in order to absorb a new idea, it requires a open mind to relinguish an old and incorrect idea. Go back and read those links.

    As for my suggestion about creating a new hull over the old; based upon costings for materials in the UK, some of which I listed, macspeedy could end up paying more in time and money to patch up a leaky hull, that could endanger his life, rather than if he went for an alternative build to achieve his goal. The transom is suspect. What else will macspeedy find? It's all about choices. There are always choices.

    P
     
  12. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    i am open to new ideas, what i suggested does work, i didn't think it was crap advice. if the ply is rotten he can resheet the boat quickly and cheaply with out building a whole new one. here in australia we are 200 years advanced on the uk so you should look to australians for guidance. you only get 3 days a year good enough to go boating so i don't know how much experience you have anyway. i met a lot of poms on the mines and they didn't have a bloody clue on how to do the jobs they had tickets for. still good at complaining about how bad australia is though. we have a saying about the english that fly out here. when the jumbo's engines stop wining the poms start. i could insult you more but i will save some for later.
     
  13. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    where have you gone pericles, didn't i put enough bait on the hook.
     
  14. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    WP23

    Your inferiority complex is showing. Although you may not understand this point, your inability to spell illustrates your reluctance to learn new ideas.

    Now that you are suggesting macspeedy could replace rotten ply with new sheets nailed (?) to the frames, which of course, could also be defective, how much further does he have to proceed, before we reach the analogy of the family axe? That's a five sheet S&G boat.

    As for your hackneyed attempts at 'strine humour, you will never make a stand up comedian, that's for sure. Recycling all the old stuff about Poms; we've all heard it before. As it happens, I made no observations about life in Australia, However, you have unwisely raised the subject.....

    From what I have been reading, Australia is being multculturally overwhelmed and sadly for you, it is not the lucky country anymore, especially considering the carbon tax efforts of your lame *uck PM. Paper bag anyone? :D:D Love the gloves, Queen J'Liar.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/

    P
     

    Attached Files:


  15. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    can't argue about the p.m, you can have her back if you want. resheeting ply boats is done all the time. my father had a team that could do a thirty foot hartley in a few days, i realise the framework has to be good or it is a waste of time. i didn't think i had to explain every detail to a man of your superior intellect. whits wong with my spulling. you referred to my australian hartley as being repaired incorrectly, maybe it was but it is as strong as any other repair i have seen. if the glued joint is stronger than the wood it is joining it has to be right. as far as rehashing old pom jokes, they are still funny to aussies. while i am typing this i am watching a show about the plastiki, the cat made out of plastic bottles, very interesting if you haven't already seen it.
     
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