The Ideal Cruiser - a long range passagemaker

[stewi]

If Mr.Zaal would approve my custom modifications....

[Vega]

It was not properly that. I like the keel and the cutter rig.
I was talking about the stern. Modern ones are broader.

Take a look at this one:

http://www.berckemeyer-yacht.de/yachts/bristol_39.html#

http://www.berckemeyer-yacht.de/yachts/bristol_39.html#

Traditional, but with a very sharp hull.

But dont get me wrong, I like the N. Confort even if I would prefer the shape of the Fan Fan. A 43' N. comfort with the hull shape of the Fan Fan would be perfect. I guess that the space would be enough and it would be a lighter and less expensive boat, not to mention a more comfortable and fast boat upwind.

[stewi]

We could possibly better share our thoughts, if we drew some shapes with this shareware.
http://www.carlsondesign.com/#Fun_Shareware
You’ll have to use your imagination, if you like a rounded hull. I’ve no problems with the chine hull.
At the end, a nautical architect could import this file and make a real boat out of it.

[JimCooper]

Originally Posted by stewi

If Mr.Zaal would approve my custom modifications....

Just think what'll happen when ye clonk that protruberance on a big black rock in a heaving swell when you exhaustedly confuse IALA with IALB ?

Seems to me you are so much better with a good slope to the leading edge of something that hangs so far below . Cruiusing yachts run aground all the time especially in the coral areas. A good slope on the Leading edge would let the boat survive almost undamged while these rock net rope weed collecting keels will suffer a shitty death.

Also were we nae talking cruising hulls ? How do ye careen or slip that configuration in most of the third world countries for repairs ? Travel lifts are not very common outside of developed countries.

Seems if ye want the steel then she may as well be durable and strong and not a racing spin off.

Again if ye want the steel then as Mr Johns said do ye build her with flat panels which is cheap and fast or do ye want a work of art. For all those concerned with the cost of the boat surely a chine steel would be the fastest to self build ?



Cheers
Jim

[dougfrolich]

I like the Santa Cruz 52. It is about the biggest boat I would want to look after as an owner, and about the smallest I could convince my wife to spend more then a weekend on. They are fast for a cruiser, and easy to handle. For me it is a 10.
But since I didn't design it I'll post my own design solution for a long range cruiser.

[Packeteer]

nice doc dougfrolich

the more i study, the more I find I don't know

[Vega]

Originally Posted by dougfrolich

I like the Santa Cruz 52. It is about the biggest boat I would want to look after as an owner, and about the smallest I could convince my wife to spend more then a weekend on. They are fast for a cruiser, and easy to handle. For me it is a 10.
But since I didn't design it I'll post my own design solution for a long range cruiser.

Nice drawings...but I still prefer the Santa Cruz, only that instead of the 52 I'll chose the SC53C . Nice and very expensive boats

http://www.santacruzyachts.com/sailboats/sc53c.html

[dougfrolich]

Vega,
A SC 52 named "Silver Bullet" spent some time in Potugal afew years back. You know the 53 is a 52 with a "hard top". Great Idea, but it looks alittle funny. I wish they made it lower. Headroom could of been maintained by incorporating a small step down at the forward end of the cockpit.

[stewi]

Seems to me you are so much better with a good slope to the leading edge of something that hangs so far below . Cruiusing yachts run aground all the time especially in the coral areas. A good slope on the Leading edge would let the boat survive almost undamged while these rock net rope weed collecting keels will suffer a shitty death.

I wonder, if the sloping leading edge works well as a ramp, lifting the hull high and dry.
Assuming the pivot of my canting keels hold up the impact of a sudden stop from 5 knots to zero and further assuming only the aft keel was canted while sailing, than I was actually hoping to get off the rock without any outside help.

Further it was the idea to have both keels canted to opposite sides and have the boat standing on its keels and rudders in order to avoid expensive docking.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by JimCooper

Seems to me you are so much better with a good slope to the leading edge of something that hangs so far below .

Cruiusing yachts run aground all the time ...

Also were we nae talking cruising hulls ? How do ye careen or slip that configuration in most of the third world countries for repairs ?

Seems if ye want the steel then she may as well be durable and strong and not a racing spin off.

Again if ye want the steel then as Mr Johns said do ye build her with flat panels which is cheap and fast or do ye want a work of art.
Cheers
Jim

Jim, look again:

http://www.berckemeyer-yacht.de/yachts/bristol_39.html#

See, you can put that boat in any beach, in settled weather. And the keel doesn't " hang so far below anymore".

The steel is too heavy for boats of this length. Aluminum is a better choice and chines make a boat slower and mainly they make a boat ugly.

Don't get me wrong, even if it doesn't appear I agree with a lot of things you have said in this thread, but a boat choice, even an oceangoing boat, is made of priorities and obviously mine are not the same as yours.

I would agree with you on the choice of a boat if my first and second priorities were maximize security and the next, all the comfort I can get.

About safety, the only way to be absolutely safe in the sea, is to stay out of it. Any small boat, even a 60ft boat, can be sunk in a real big storm.

But yours are not my priorities, my first priority is pleasure. That’s why I sail. So I want a boat that gives pleasure and a heavysail boat gives me little pleasure to sail and an ugly boat doesn’t give you that good and proud sensation of owning a precious thing… a work of art, why not, if I can?

Of course safety is one of my priorities. I will only choose a boat that has at least 3 times more resistance to capsize that the one that is required to have a boat approved in CE, as fit for oceangoing (I agree that the requirements to approve a boat in CE as a Class A boat are ridiculous), plus I want a solid boat that can resist without any major problem to capsizing and I want a boat with at least an AVS of 135, to be sure that the boat doesn't stay upside down.

As for comfort, it comes (for me) after speed, not for the speed in itself, but for the pleasure to go fast. I want also to maximize sailing versus motoring, so I will not have a boat that cannot make at least 6kn with 8kn of wind, and preferably one that makes 7kn. Of course comfort also counts, but the only concessions about it are that I don’t want a boat smaller than 40ft and with less then 7T and giving the possibility (money) I will choose the longer boat and the one with less beam (I am talking of cruising designs), to make an easier and more comfortable boat upwind.

About going aground all the time…It never happened to me, and even if I am far away from your experience I recon I have made more than 10 000M, most of them in coastal waters. I spend a lot more time on anchor than in marinas…and I am normally nearer the coast than most boats around and my boat has a draft of around 2m.
So I believe that “going aground all the time…” is a bit exaggerated.

Of course I understand your priorities, but they are not the only ones that are correct. They are good for you, I have others, I am sure they are the right ones for me.

The point about choosing a boat, should be to understand completely the options and choices you are making, regarding a certain type of boat, and I agree with you that most people that buy boats don’t know what they are buying and that the builders and the Government (CE) do nothing to make those choices clear. On the contrary, they make ridiculous claims that can endanger consumer lives, if they take them seriously.

Saudações

Paulo

[Vega]

Originally Posted by dougfrolich

Vega,
You know the 53 is a 52 with a "hard top".

I really like the way the SC 52 looks, but if I had that amount of money to spend in a boat I would prefer this one:

http://www.shipman.dk/gallery/?m0=4&m1=1&m2=87&id=99
http://www.shipman.dk/

I have seen one this year in the Med, and I can tell you that it looks even better. The only word to describe it doesn't come from the boatworld...I would say Ferrari. It has also an incredible price, if we consider that it is an all carbon boat with beautiful interiors.

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by Vega

and chines make a boat slower and mainly they make a boat ugly.
Paulo

Vega

Ugly? This is a prejudice that I think you should be cured of.

Chines make very little difference at all to performance, tank tests have shown some chine forms to actaully have lower drag . Also consider that the chine adds significantly to roll daming.

Modern chine designs are very sensible for a sheet material, are easy to build and to repair. Also construction cost is significantly less. Why torture the material at great time and cost when a good designer can give you a hullform you can plate with single dimensional curves.

You have probably just not seen a well designed chine hull. Funnily enough single chine can often be quite pleasing to the eye.

As an engineer I look at collision damage a lot. Jim's correct in that collisions are commonplace, I think that underwater collision durability is important, you will most likely collide with the keel down . This is why centre boards should hinge back into a strong case.

If you have never run aground you are fortunate indeed, but your turn will come

[Bergalia]

[quote=MikeJohns]Vega

Ugly? This is a prejudice that I think you should be cured of.

Forgive him Mike - after all - Portugal... Outside sardines what do they know... It is a seafaring nation that lacks our Australian sensibilities....Did they invent the boomerang, 'Neighbours', 'Home and Away'...Why there's not even a 'Portugese Idol' on television.... (just kidding Paulo)

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by Vega

Nice drawings...but I still prefer the Santa Cruz, only that instead of the 52 I'll chose the SC53C . Nice and very expensive boats

http://www.santacruzyachts.com/sailboats/sc53c.html

Hi Dougfrolic:

I like your design. If I were to go for a faster, lighter boat, I would take something like your design. I like the aft sloping leading edge of the keel the most. Kelp catchers and lobster pot collectors are not my cup of tea. I like the chord of the keel to at least equal its depth. Yours seems to do this. For a light boat, these days, yours with a DL of around 153 looks refreshingly moderate.

The stability curve looks good too. And I like the fact that you put a limit on payload. Everybody should do that.

Good luck with your project.

Bob

[stewi]

If the hull is long and narrow, than the radius chine hull is not too much of a problem for a home builder. It appears to me that the plates at the bottom are only rolled and not cambered in both directions. http://www.ribadeau.com/naval/www/in...rt&article=111

Aluminum is definetly the material of my choice.