The Ideal Cruiser - a long range passagemaker

[Packeteer]

D'ARTOIS,

thx for those hints on where to get hulls made cheap, though somewhere in asia would be closer for me.

my time frame is 8 - 10 years, with start of building in 5 years

[D'ARTOIS]

Here is a Dick Zaal design, the Northern Comfort 43' -
LOA 12.92 mtr
LWL 11.10 "
Bmax 4.04 "
Draft 2.07 "
Ballast 4650 kgs
Displ. 8750 "

The Northern Comfort is Cutter rigged:

Main 37.8 m2 or 407 sq ft
Genoa 42.4 m2 or 455 sq ft
Yankee 47.5 m2 or 510 sq ft
Staysail 15.1 m2 or 162 sq ft

building material: steel or aluminium, cutter rig or masthead rig


more info: www.dickzaalyachtdesign.nl

[D'ARTOIS]

Please read also the story of FAN FAN, a Dick Zaal design that cruised more than 50.000 nautical miles around the world:

www.seefieber.de

An English translation is available, I believe.

[D'ARTOIS]

A remarkable phrase, expressed by the german single hander who owns and sails FAN FAN, was that for the renovation of his boat he could almost by a boat out of a production serie, however, such a boat could never give him the feeling and conviction of being capable of reaching every point in the world in safety.

The boat had already a career behind her when this German bought her and specifical significant are his remarks concerning the aspects of the engine.

Furthermore he decided to do away with GPS, hot and cold pressurised water, a transmitter and such other gadgets.

KEEP IT SIMPLE! are his keywords.

He removed also two winches he did not need and also het took some weight out of the keel and reduced the power of the engine by installing a smaller one.

Defanately no fool, ths German sailor.

In 1991, when I sailed for the first time in green (= Atlantic) waters, my mate and I did not have a gps, but only a decca system that worked now and then, being outdated by the GPS systems.

The warship regime of noting your position each hour, or keeping track records of your course, are absolutely unnecessary in wide open water.
Two or three times a day checking your position, either by the use of a sextant or by gps is more than sufficient.

Another item of interest came forward: the total number of engine hours were only 2% from his total sailing hours.

This is something to consider.

[D'ARTOIS]

This is basically Uwe Rottiger's boat (before the changes he made) and the basic Dick Zaal design, called "Greyhound" this boat sailed about 60.000 nautical miles and a lot have been sailed in the worst conditions one meets.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by D'ARTOIS

Hopefully not. But you see Wynand how diverted the opinions are and how close they come together sometimes.

Two topics are running about the same subject and what I see is that we are indeed looking at boats, like the Morris 51, or the Luffe that only a few can afford, - a newly build Koopmans of 45" will cost you about Euro 300,000.-- including sails and navionics if you know how to manage such a project.

Yes, and that is the point that I wanted to express. If money was not a problem there was no problem to find the right boat. But almost to everybody, money IS the problem, and after all this thread is about an AFFORDABLE long range passagemaker and I believe that it is what is of interest for most of us.

So I think that the way to go passes through a budget/size that can be acceptable to the majority. Of course both things are interconnected and the budget will have decisive effects on the size of the boat.

For me the "right" numbers will be 200-300 000 euros/40-45ft .

….and I think this will be the easiest part to agree. I think that when we talk about D/L and S/D and maximum size of sails, it will be very difficult to find common ground.

About the Morris 51, I think that it costs a lot more than the 600 000 euros you are talking about, by comparison the Luffe 48 is an affordable boat at around 300 000 euros.

[D'ARTOIS]

Vega, I said or meant to say that a boat like the Morris 51 will cost ME around 600.000 - not that the Morris 51 could be bought for that amount.

[stewi]

This is a type of boat I like.
I was reading another report from Uwe Röttiger, in which he mocks about an article about the 100 most experienced sailors, half of them his countryman.
This leads me to another response on this forum of experience and the perception, that an experienced sailor makes also a good designer.
While West Berlin was still surrounded by the Wall and the largest waves Berlin sailors experienced were created by commercial boats on the city lake, there were at least two handful sailors cruising all oceans and with several around the world passages.
Now, recently the number of sailors all over the world from Switzerland is on the rise. …and the Swiss even won the cup.
Although, the Netherlands have some coast line to the North sea, most of their designers overlook the tranquil Lake of the Ijsselmeer, yet they design boats which make good ocean going vessels.
The time had changed, so did the boats from Vito Dumas and Joshua Slocum.

[D'ARTOIS]

Uwe Rottiger got some problems with the press at home - mocking about your fellow-sailors is not the way to get popular. Although it must be admitted that Rottiger used the most extra-ordinary passages to circumnavigate.
I think that single handers have a specific attitude that makes them capable of doing away with company.
At best I like to be with two on board but preferrably I sail alone. Even if there are two on a boat, you sail alone because the other is sleeping whilst you are keeping watch.
When I am off watch, I read, do the navigation, small repairs, fiddling with the sails - the mate is doing the cooking and washing. Alternatively we sleep. Nightwatches are tiring and dull.
On the way to Falmouth, I decided to give the Solent a wide berth. It took the whole night sailing from The Owers to St Catherine's point, the tide and current running against us. Because of the ferryboats, I could not go down for coffee.
The mate was sleeping and I had the dogwatch (00.00 till 4.00). It was raining and no doghouse!

What is the worst, doing the nightwatches, is the howling of the fisherman in the Med area, cruising along the Spanish coastline. It is unbelievable what kind of verbal abuse you have to hear as long as you keep your radio tuned on to channel 16.

[stewi]

I agree.
I never learned Spanish well enough to cope with the different dialects along the Spanish coast.
Meanwhile, I switched the cruising ground to the American coastline and my English is sufficient.
Considering to retire on a boat, going up and down the Intracoastal Waterway, but also make safe passages to Bermuda and the Caribbean, may give my boat a different look, than the ones crossing the oceans.
I can’t effort 300.000 Euro or even 600,000 Euro. I’ll possibly make sacrifices on what is considered a beautiful boat, if this is, what makes a boat expensive. In fact, I’m looking more into building the boat myself than buying from a yard.
At this point, I’m looking more into a radius chine hull, than a round bilge. I do admit, that it is more difficult to design a multi-chine hull, not looking ugly, than a rounded hull. Although I do like the Dutch designed boats, I may rather consult a French designer for a multi chine boat.
My estimated cost for the (14 m) hull and deck design is $ 10,000, considering I know pretty much what I want. Building (material) cost $ 20,000.
For the schooner rigging, I consider freestanding carbon fiber masts. I fear, I’ll not get much professional support, other than consulting the Georgia Tech Aerospace department, if I want to do the masts myself. I’ve some experience with epoxy and carbon fiber and I’ll look deeper into it, when I get there. Estimated cost $ 5,000 per spar. Sails will cost me another $ 10k to $ 15k. To cut my list short, I should be on the water for under $ 100,000 fully equipped, including an inflatable dinghy with out-boarder.

[Packeteer]

my budget will top out round 300k aussie dollars

I think I'll be hard pressed to get what I want boat wise unless I do a lot of the work myself

guess I should go take some boat building courses

[FAST FRED]

If your budget is limited there are hundreds of boats on Boattraideronline, and similar sites.

Not one in a hundred is a suitable offshore vessel ,
but certainly enough are offered that a few are functional enough to be GONE for about $100,000US.

FAST FRED

[Vega]

Originally Posted by stewi

I agree.
I never learned Spanish well enough to cope with the different dialects along the Spanish coast.

...I want to do the masts myself. I’ve some experience with epoxy and carbon fiber and I’ll look deeper into it, when I get there.

Don't be like that... they are not dialects but thousand year old languages. There are 4 of them (Castellano, being the oficial language of Spain) . I can understand 3 of them (the Basque is very difficult for me)... and I like the night animation on the radio, keeps me from sleeping.

About the carbon mast I thought it was needed very expensive equipment to make one. You can make one without that equipment?

[stewi]

Whoops, no offense, language versus dialect.

Yes, carbon fiber masts can be done in any temperature controlled room.
The guy who crossed the English channel in a pedal driven airplane built the spar and wing structure using carbon fiber and epoxy without the expensive enclave.

Buying a used boat, here is another good site for used boats.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...e=100000&cint=

However, if you are looking for your boat, which fits your requirement, than it becomes quite difficult to find the right one.
If you intend to change the interior from a charter design to a small family boat and remove the bulkheads, than you buy pretty much a bare (used) hull with deck, used engine and sails.
There may be an advantage to buy insurance for your boat, if you buy a serial product.
Nevertheless, this is not, what this thread is about.
I met another Aussie (actually, I met quite a few in the Mediterranean), who built two boats at the same time. He sold one and got his boat almost for free.
If we agree on one design and build a small building community, we could also save quite some money....

[Vega]

Originally Posted by D'ARTOIS

Here is a Dick Zaal design, the Northern Comfort 43' -
LOA 12.92 mtr
LWL 11.10 "
Bmax 4.04 "
Draft 2.07 "
Ballast 4650 kgs
Displ. 8750 "

The Northern Comfort is Cutter rigged:

Main 37.8 m2 or 407 sq ft
Genoa 42.4 m2 or 455 sq ft
Yankee 47.5 m2 or 510 sq ft
Staysail 15.1 m2 or 162 sq ft

building material: steel or aluminium, cutter rig or masthead rig


more info: www.dickzaalyachtdesign.nl

D'Artois this is one of my favorite designs of D. V. Zaal, even if the hull is a bit fat (for me) and looks a little dated.

I have to say that the Weight you mention was a surprise to me and I have to ask you if you are sure. Oh!, I like the Weight as it is (I like them light fast and seaworthy) but I have to point out that the Skimmer, (another DVZ design) with 11.8m weighs 8.1T and that the Atlantic 42, with 13.3m weighs 11T, and appears to be a lot more sporty than the Northern Confort.